response 50 of 89:

Oct 16 16:10 UTC 2003

Kumbaya.

response 52 of 89:

Oct 16 16:27 UTC 2003

oooohhh ohhhh ... look, we got massacred, oooooh ohhhhh, we were 
wronged, ooooh ohhhhh, no one helped us. 

Well, so did almost everyone in some age or period in history.

response 54 of 89:

Oct 16 18:05 UTC 2003

leeron, I was making the case that OTHERS have argued those things.  You make
it sound like if I bring up a theory written by a linguist or a historian,
that I am making their arguments as my own.  I am PRESENTING their arguments,
just as you did with that genetic study (and you only referenced one and only
one genetic study)

in fact I told you my opinion in my last post, which is that I personally
don't think the arguments matter that much.  Nobody is pure breed.  We are
all half breeds, mixed breeds, mutts if you will.  The discussion of how
semitic or non-semitic the jewish people are is ONLY relevant in terms of this
conflict in the middle east, and the irrational, racist, feelings that some
people on both sides there seem to have against each other.  If the only way
to disspell these hard line feelings, and get to peace, is to debunk the myths
behind those feelings, then so be it.

So lk, what I am saying, is for every argument you make, there are counter
arguments made by credible people, historians, linguists, and others who have
studied these things intensively.  And you want to point to two, and only two,
genetic studies, and claim they are 100% accurate and undeniable.  That flies
in the face of practicality, which tells you that it is very hard to prove
anything "absolutely", particularly when you are talking about events that
happened so long ago.

So stop saying you are "absolutely" right, and anyone who disagrees with you
is "absolutely wrong"  It is this execessive "righteousness" that prevents
peace in the middle east.  And if those studies are accurate, what do they
really prove? that jewish people are more racially pure than any other race?
does that really matter?  does it?  No, what it really proves is that arabs
and jews might be more closely related to each other than they are to any
other peoples in the world.  That shouldn't make you feel superior, that
should make you feel equal to, bretheren to, your arab brothers

response 58 of 89:

Oct 17 14:08 UTC 2003

> Israel as a nation commits all kinds of atrocities.

Sounds like another one of those assumptions.  Atrocities like at Jenin,
which didn't happen? Like the death of 12-year old Mohammed Al Dura (the
intifada poster boy) who it turns out was killed by Arab fire under
circumstances that look like an intentional "sacrifice" in an attempt
to frame Israel?

Yes, Lynne, you can disagree with the Israeli government without hating
Jews. I believe you do -- just as do half of Israelis. But to equate
Israeli "atrocities" with those of Hamas is beyond the pale.


Blacks who hate whites are just as much of a problem as whites who hate
blacks.

Gays who hate straights are just as much of a problem as straights who
hate gays.

Jews who hate Arabs are just as much of a problem as Arabs who hate Jews.

No, they're not. Israel's policies are not driven by hate.

The dozen or so incidents of Jewish terror over the past 3 years are not
"as much of a problem" as the 10,000 Arab acts of terror.  Israel has
arrested and jailed the Jewish culprits. The PA funds and harbors the
Arab culprits, as do Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Israeli TV documentaries don't teach hatred of Arabs. Yet in Saudi Arabia
programs taught how Jews use Muslim blood for Passover and in Egypt a
TV series regurgitated the forgery of the "Elders of Zion" (along with
hitler's "Mein Kempf", the book is a top seller in the Arab world).

I'm not going to deny that some Jews hate Arabs, but Jews are not taught
to do so in schools or on official media organs.  (As was just discussed
in item 60, see www.edume.org )  And this curriculum of hate even extends
to Muslim schools in America.

Now witness the comments of Mahathir Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia,
at the opening of the "Organization of Islamic States" 2 days ago:

        We are up against a people who think. They survived 2000
        years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking,"
        Mahathir said. "They invented Socialism, Communism, human
        rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear
        to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others.

In other words, equal/human rights don't apply to Jews. Persecuting
them is OK. Look how crafty they are, inventing these ideas of rights
just to attempt to enjoy them like human beings....

(Ironically, these comments were issued a day after sj2 explained
that Malaysia is just "anti-Israel" and not anti-semitic.)

response 60 of 89:

Oct 17 21:09 UTC 2003

Israels' policies may not be driven by hate, but you'd be dead wrong to 
argue that there are no Israelis who both hate Arabs and have a lot of 
influence in national politics.  The continual (and occasionally 
successful) drive toward expansion of settlements in the West Bank and 
the weak official response to it are more than proof enough.  The hate 
there is thinly veiled at best.

response 62 of 89:

Oct 18 00:03 UTC 2003

I disagree with your take, Eric, for several reasons.

First, I don't think they hate the Arabs.
They love the land.

Second, "settlements" don't displace Arabs.
Many "settlers" live in peace with their neighbors.

Third, most of the expansion of "settlements" is in areas that would
remain part of Israel under most deals that have been discussed (Clinton,
the recent Geneva understandings).

Fourth, keep in mind who was in charge of dismantling Jewish "settlements"
in the Sinai -- Ariel Sharon.

Again, I'm not denying that some Jews hate Arabs and that some even want
to "transfer" them out of the disputed territories and even Israel. But
the champion of this movement was Meir Kahane, and his political party
was outlawed as a hate party a decade ago.

Contrast that to Arafat's ongoing support of terrorists....
(And Syria's, and Saudi Arabia's, and Iran....)

response 66 of 89:

Oct 19 02:46 UTC 2003

sj2, you also agreed with me that Malaysia isn't just "anti-Israel"
but anti-semitic.  Recall the comments Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, 
at the opening of the "Organization of Islamic States" 3 days ago:

       We are up against a people who think. They survived 2000
       years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking,"
       Mahathir said. "They invented Socialism, Communism, human
       rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear
       to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others.

In other words, equal/human rights don't apply to Jews. Persecuting
them is OK. Look how crafty they are, inventing these ideas of rights
just to attempt to enjoy them like human beings....

From today's news:

03:37   Malaysian FM says he is confident that Prime Minister Mahathir
        Mohamad `has no anti-Jewish feeling`

But you are agreeing with me on a very important point. Muslim leaders
are teaching jihad & hate while Jewish leaders do not. So what can be
said of the "cycle of hate" false equivalence?

And what can be said about the "cycle of violence"? Is it right to equate
the cold blooded and intentional murder of innocent civilians with the
attempt to attack these terrorists?

response 68 of 89:

Oct 19 15:21 UTC 2003

Jews have big noses.

response 72 of 89:

Oct 20 02:00 UTC 2003

sj2:

> PM Mahathir Mahomad... should apologise unconditionally for his remarks.

He has repeatedly refused to do so, saying there was nothing wrong with them.

> Yes, there are a large number of Muslim leaders preaching hatred for
> non-muslims.

Agreed.  (There is no "cycle of hate")

> And yes, it is definitely not right to equate the cold  blooded and
> intentional murder of innocent civilians with the attempt to attack
> these terrorists.

Agreed, but note that rcurl, scott, and perhaps other Grexers seem to
disagree. (There is no "cycle of violence")

> 1. What was the investigation undertaken prior....

The individuals and terrorist leaders are known, often through the use of
informants and confessions of captured terrorists.  (Consider that Israel's
intelligence even knows where they are at a particular time.)

> 2. Was this done by a civil or military tribunal/court?

I may be mistaken, but I believe that pre-emptive strikes on terrorists must
be approved by the civilian courts. (In essense, the terrorist is tried in
absentina.)

> 3. Did the terrorists deserve the death penalty for their crimes?

I would argue that a terrorist who has blood on his hands and is still engaged
in murderous activities is, first of all, a combatant and that it is not just
Israel's right but responsibility to pre-emptively kill him.  (Consider also
that Israel does not have a death penalty. Would a terrorist surrender he
would at worst receive a jail term of life in prison.)

Consider also that if the PA would arrest these terrorists (as it has
repeatedly committed but failed to do), there would be no need for this.

> 4. Proof that the identified suspects.... [were them]

Again, this boils down to intelligence. If the terrorists prefer a trial, they
can surrender....

> 5. What about the innocent bystanders....

Israel does what it can to limit such deaths. It has avoided hits and
undertaken casualties in an effort to protect innocent Arab civilians.

Yet it is the terrorists who hide behind their own civilians who bear
responsibility for their deaths, and the Geneva Conventions allow for
military strikes even if there is potential for civilian casualties.

Dr. Rene Louis Beres, prof. of international law at Purdue university,
writes:

        By the standards of contemporary international law, terrorists are
        known as hostes humani generis, common enemies of humankind. In the
        fashion of pirates, who were "to be hanged by the first persons into
        whose hands they fall" (from the distinguished 18th century legal
        scholar Emmerich de Vattel), terrorists are international outlaws
        who fall within the scope of "universal jurisdiction."

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/1997/oct/ber1.htm
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~beres/bass8_01.htm
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~beres/assaspol.html

response 74 of 89:

Oct 22 01:39 UTC 2003

20:15   IDF film of Gaza raids refutes Palestinian claim missiles wounded
        bystanders; target areas seen empty of people