response 50 of 120:

Nov 19 18:00 UTC 2003

Saturns are built in Tennessee, and are sold only in the US and Canada 
as far as I know.  They're usually rated by magazines as pretty 
ordinary cars, but their customer satisfaction scores are high because 
of their no-haggle pricing and because they really try to make people 
feel happy.  People go to Tennessee to tour the Saturn factory, and 
there's a Saturn-owners "reunion" every year.

They used to use a Japanese style of management.  When my brother hired 
in, he had to interview with the people he would be working with, and 
get their buy-in to be hired, for example.  There was not much division 
between management and line workers.  That's gone now; Saturn is owned 
by GM after all, and that's not the GM way.  But I guess it was fun 
while it lasted.

response 52 of 120:

Nov 19 23:37 UTC 2003

Re #44:  Even a difference of 5 MPG takes more or less time to
make up, depending where it is.

The problem is that fuel consumption is the inverse of miles per
gallon, and people have a poor feel for inverses.  Put it this
way:  making one vehicle improve from 20 MPG (0.05 gallon/mile)
to 40 MPG (0.025 gallon/mile) saves twice as much fuel as
taking an 80 MPG (0.0125 gallon/mile) vehicle and making it
run on no fuel at all.

The savings due to going from 25 MPG to 40 MPG is not 3 times as
much as the savings due to going from 35 MPG to 40 MPG, it is
more like 4.5 times as much; the difference between 20 MPG and
40 MPG is seven times as much as that between 35 MPG and 40 MPG.

response 54 of 120:

Nov 21 06:23 UTC 2003

Congratulations, jep!

Regarding the recommendations earlier in this item, and over and over again
in Consumer Reports, to know all about the dealer's costs to get the car and
refuse to pay more than some set amount over that, I'm not convinced.  Partly
this is because any formula for that sort of negotiation I've seen would have
resulted in me insisting on a price significantly more than I paid for my new
car, and partly this is because it doesn't seem to make much business sense.
If the supply/demand equation for a given car (or any product) is such that
the dealer can sell every one they get at a large profit, they're not going
to accept offers that don't give them that profit margin.  If they can't sell
something for what they paid for it but they would like to get some of that
money back, they'll cut their losses and sell it for less.

What I'd suggest instead in negotiating car prices (from what little
experience I have at it) is to treat it the same as negotiating anything else
involving large amounts of money -- real estate, telecommunications capacity,
employment terms and sallary:
 - If at all possible, don't make your opening offer until you've heard
   theirs.  You don't want to end up asking for a worse deal than they would
   have just given you.  If they ask you to go first, claim ignorance: "I'm
   just starting to look.  I'm going to get a few more offers before deciding,
   but you know the market better than I do.  Tell me what you think is fair."
   If they refuse to play that game, and won't go first, give them a number
   you know to be way out in left field.  This generally forces them to
   counter with something.  If they instead try to end the conversation, you
   can respond with, "ok, if that won't work, tell me what will."  But then,
   stick to, or close to, your ridiculously low number.  You'll have to go
   up at some point, most likely, but see how low you can get them to go
   first.  They did, after all, ask you to come up with a number.

 - You've said you were going to get other offers as well.  Do it.  Get as
   many other offers as you reasonably can.  Tell any but the lowest that
   they're too high, and see if they respond by coming down on their own. 
   Negotiate down from the lowest, making it clear that you're still talking
   to the others and aren't ready to buy that day.  Also, indicate with some
   hesitation that even the lowest bid might be high enough that the deal
   won't work.  Never say it defnitely won't -- you lose credibility if you
   later end up taking it -- but insist that it will be difficult and that
   you need some time think it over.  When you get to a point where you can
   get up and leave, saying you aren't sure if it's going to work, and they
   don't come after you, you've probably gotten them down as low as you're
   going to get them on your own.

 - Once you're pretty sure you've negotiated a good deal, you're at the point
   of being ready to go to the competition and name your own price, probably
   a few hundred lower than the offer you're about to accept.  If the
   competing dealer accepts your offer, you're probably at the point where
   you should take it -- you're not going to get them down lower than what
   you've already offered them without some significant work.  But at that
   point it might be worth calling another dealer and offering even less, to
   see what happens.  If the other dealers refuse your offers, thank them for
   their time and take the deal you've already negotiated.  That's a good
   indication that you really have done well in the negotiating process.

On a slightly different note, I notice on Saturn's website that while their
dealers aren't supposed to negotiate on price, the dealers do get to set
their own prices.  This presumably means that even if for some reason you
were to buy a Saturn, it would still be worth doing a fair amount of shoping
around for the best price.  I wonder if they really just tell you to go away
if the dealer in the next town turns out to have a lower price.

response 56 of 120:

Nov 21 17:31 UTC 2003

Jim never negotiates on his cars.  He currently owns two that were given to
him by friends.  Oddly enough, he fixed chimneys (free) for both of them, and
plumbing, and their other cars....  

Why buy a used car from a dealership rather than from the owner?

response 58 of 120:

Nov 21 18:34 UTC 2003

Re 56:  If the car dealer has a used car you want to buy, you just might end
up buying it there.  Actually new-car dealers do get a fair number of used
cars, either trade-ins or previously leased cars and such.  Lots of late-model
cars.

response 60 of 120:

Nov 22 00:11 UTC 2003

BOth cards given to Jim were taken care of well by their original owners. 
One of them has a hole in the floor in front of the passenger seat but works
fine otherwise and he can patch it.  They are probably more reliable than
something purchased from a dealer who does not know the history.

response 62 of 120:

Nov 22 15:18 UTC 2003

He is going to rivet a sheet of stainless steel over the hole some year when
the other car stops working, but that car has only about 160,000 miles on it
and we usually only drive it twice a year.  I could sit in back.

response 64 of 120:

Nov 25 17:24 UTC 2003

My limited experience with buying used cars from car dealers has not
been good.  They seem *very* reluctant to negotiate price on used cars,
even when their asking price is significantly higher than Blue Book.

response 66 of 120:

Nov 25 22:07 UTC 2003

So far Saturn hasn't been slated for elimination.  It's been basically
folded back into GM, though, so it's no longer really distinct from any
other GM brand.  The plan is to do the usual GM thing -- use the same
platforms for Saturns as for other GM cars, with "badge engineering" and
minor trim differences to try to convince people there's a difference. 
They're also talking about getting rid of the plastic body panels.

response 68 of 120:

Nov 27 09:38 UTC 2003

Nice whore.

response 70 of 120:

Nov 28 03:41 UTC 2003

Congratulations, John!

response 72 of 120:

Nov 28 03:59 UTC 2003

re resp:70: Thanks!

response 74 of 120:

Nov 28 13:47 UTC 2003

We just learned yesterday that our visitor is selling their 1996 Nissan, in
good condition, with sunroof but no MP3 player.  Dark red.  Anyone want it?
She has been here a week and did not mention it before.  They are going to
be out of the country for a few years or would have kept it.