response 51 of 92:

Nov 17 19:50 UTC 2003

20:34   U.S. troops shoot dead three Iraqis, including boy, 11 

I'm sure that Aaron can explain this as due to American hatred
of Iraqis. As if it has nothing to do with the situation wherein
terrorists/insurgents/guerrillas disguised as civilians launch
a hundred or two attacks on US forces each week.

While Americans know that there are some kooks (like the murderer
of an Indian Seikh in Arizona as payback for 9-11 and white
supremacist groups), and while we understand that some of these
kooks may serve in the armed forces, we also understand that if
this is the case that the Army will investigate and punish the
perpetrator. Yet the odds are that this was a tragic incident.
That it was not a hate-filled American soldier expressing the wishes
of a hate-filled American society by intentionally shooting a child.

So it is in Israel. Again, the fact that the number of children
killed is much lower (by an order of magnitude!) than expected from
the statistical cross-section shows not only that Israel doesn't
target children but that it takes efforts to avoid such casualties.

response 53 of 92:

Nov 18 05:51 UTC 2003

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7C2224BE-FF53-43FA-858C-
3D32A15300EA.htm

Three Iraqis - including a child - have been shot dead by US troops in 
the capital while two occupation soldiers were killed in attacks north 
of Baghdad.

The three Iraqis were killed on Monday at Baghdad s gun market when US 
soldiers mistook gunfire of customers testing weapons for an attack. 

According to Iraqi police, the dead included an 11-year-old boy, while 
four others were also wounded. 

The apparently mistaken shooting of civilians began when a group of 
Iraqis were testing a gun in the market by firing it in the air, said 
Major Ali Rykan of the Iraqi police. As they shot, four US armoured 
cars passed by, Rykan said.    

At least two US soldiers opened fire on the market, killing the three, 
said Rykan and Hashem Naim Muhammad, a witness. His 11-year-old 
nephew, Akil Hussain Naim, was among the dead. 

The shooting took place at the Mraydi market, a three-kilometre-long 
market that is famous in Baghdad as a place where one can buy guns.

In Iraq, it is legal for a family to own one gun for self-defence.
=====================================================================

Given recent attacks on US troops, they must be really edgy (although 
opening fire on a market is *BAD*). After all, everyone loves their 
life. But a bunch of people firing guns in your vicinity is very 
different from a small group of un-armed bird-catchers. Lame analogy, 
lk. 

response 55 of 92:

Nov 18 13:56 UTC 2003

Re #52:  The only thing weird is your lack of comprehension of
the obvious.  Or maybe not so weird, given your blatant prejudice.

response 57 of 92:

Nov 18 15:35 UTC 2003

Ohh!! So the occupied country's people should just give up buying arms 
for self-protection even after the high rise in crime post-occupation??

Re #54, It does not show that the soldiers murdered them out of hatred 
but that the soldiers are so high strung that they have little regard 
for human rights. And they will readily kill anyone even remotely 
suspected of being a terrorist. Its called fear not hatred.

response 59 of 92:

Nov 18 17:38 UTC 2003

Mr. sj2 fails to note that the so-called "gun market" was illegal and 
had been previously shut down several times.  One would think that this 
information would be common knowledge and it would take little sense to 
realize the firing of guns might very well be interpreted by U.S. 
troops as very threatening behavior.  (Perhaps these people are vying 
for a Darwin award?)

response 61 of 92:

Nov 18 22:41 UTC 2003

Re 54:  The more obvious and likely "overaching explanation" is that the kids
put bird traps in military areas... because they have no non-military areas
available.

response 63 of 92:

Nov 19 04:00 UTC 2003

Don't forget to add population figures, Leeron.

And don't forget that despite the HUGE SIZE of the West Bank, Israel is
apparently able to afford an elaborate fence along the entire border...

response 65 of 92:

Nov 19 05:45 UTC 2003

Re #59, lk, you brought up the Iraq issue. Remember, the original post 
was about Israeli troops in Palestine and not US troops in Iraq?

And you still haven't responded to #42 and #44.

OT - http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/7.htm
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000633.php

response 67 of 92:

Nov 19 19:16 UTC 2003

> we're all aware of your hatred for the Palestinians.

Scott reinforces that he's in this not to discuss issues and events but to
launch such ad hominem attacks.  Twit!

> despite your portrayals of them as irrational, violent, idiots, they do in
> fact have a fairly normal way of life.

Ditto.  I've never portrayed them as "irrational" nor "idiots".
There is little doubt that they believe in and support violent solutions.
The PLO Covenant still rejects non-violent solutions.

> It's not like they're all living at random in a vast unoccupied area,
> free to cultivate or hunt any spot which suits their fancy.

They live exactly where they used to live prior to the legal Israeli
administration of the area following the 1967 war. They are free to
cultivate and hunt on their property except where, due to legitimate
security concerns, certain areas are off limits.

The "It's the 'occupation', stupid" line really doesn't work given that
there was murderous violence directed against Israel prior to 1967, for
all the same reasons.  Ending the violence would produce peace, mutual
co-existance. The Arab terrorists are against that (and openly state so).

I added the population figures as per your request.  Were you surprised
that the population density is similar to Beligium? I assume you expected
something totally different and that was the reason you asked.
Did you learn something?

Perhaps now you can finally share with us the basis of unwarranted
assumption/conclusion?

Why is the other 5600 sq km insufficient for catching birds such that parents
send their children to do so in a restricted military area where they can
(and have been) mistaken for terrorists laying mines?

Does anyone really believe that the area adjacent to the security fence
is better for bird hunting than all other areas?!

response 69 of 92:

Nov 20 04:51 UTC 2003

Poor Scott. He doesn't understand that by making unwarranted assumptions
and presenting them as valid conclusions that he reveals his own prejudices.

Or maybe he does, and rather than admit this (or show that his assumptions
had merit) he's trying to obscure this by raising false accusation against
me.  I had expressed a hope that Scott had learned something, but rather
than take heed he seems intent to compound his sins.

response 71 of 92:

Nov 20 13:47 UTC 2003

Poor Leeron.  He doesn't understand that by making unwarranted assumptions
 and presenting them as valid conclusions that he reveals his own prejudices.

Or perhaps he does, but he's so blinded by his hatred that he doesn't see
anything wrong with it.

response 73 of 92:

Nov 20 14:13 UTC 2003

Even the police can't just shoot someone dead. They are required to 
shoot a warning shot, then shoot to arrest which means shoot the 
suspect at the legs or somewhere else so that the suspect is not 
killed. 

Although, this is older, but clearly lays down the rules of engagement 
for the IDF.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0bzx0

1. When a soldier finds himself in a life-threatening situation, in 
which case he may direct fire toward the threat (the recent 
intensication of terrorism in the territories has demonstrated that one 
type of life-threatening situation encountered is that of a soldier 
engaging an individual carrying a firearm).

The rule clearly says "life-threatening situation" and not 
suspected "life-threatening situation".

2. While carrying out the standard procedure for apprehending a 
suspect, in which case the fire is directed to halt the suspect and not 
to kill him. During violent rioting, soldiers may be permitted to use 
plastic and rubber bullets to disperse the rioters.

These regulations apply to all IDF soldiers, including those serving in 
special units.

Bru, unlike what you seem to think, soldiers have to abide by certain 
rules when using firearms. From your post, it seems that you think that 
the police/army can get into a free-for-all whenever they wish. 
Thankfully, thats not the case.