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Grex > Agora35 > #21: An item in which Grex's staff crosses the line ... | |
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| 25 new of 163 responses total. |
twinkie
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response 50 of 163:
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Sep 25 19:00 UTC 2000 |
From popcorn@tir.com Mon Sep 25 14:59:58 2000
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:05:58 -0500
From: Valerie Mates <popcorn@tir.com>
To: Kevin Nicholls <twinkie@cyberspace.org>
Cc: staff@cyberspace.org
Subject: Re: mass tels
Hm. That's a good question. I don't think anything like an AUP is all
collected together in one place on Grex. There's a bit of a discussion of
acceptable uses of Grex in the newuser program. There are bits and pieces
in the FAQ. And there are bits of information elsewhere too. I know for
years the staff has been telling users that sending mass tels is not an
acceptable use of Grex, but I don't think this is formally posted anywhere.
I'm torn between saying, "we could do better at posting this; we should
write something up" and "One of the founding philosophies of Grex was to
have as few rules as possible, since as soon as you make rules people come
along and start testing them. So we'll just expect the users to treat each
other respectfully and see how that works out" -- in which case it wouldn't
make sense to post a list of rules.
If you're feeling so inclined, you might bring this issue up for discussion
in the co-op conference.
-Valerie
At 11:39 PM 3/29/00 -0500, Kevin Nicholls wrote:
>
>I was not aware of this.
>Could you please tell me where I could find the AUP?
>
>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Valerie Mates wrote:
>
>> Twinkie, staff is getting a barrage of e-mail complaining about these:
>>
>> >Telegram from twinkie on ttyq6 at 20:21 EST ...
>> >Send your own masstels! Just type !./a/t/w/twinkie/masstel
>> >EOF (twinkie)
>>
>> Sending mass tels is not an acceptable use of Grex. Please stop.
>>
>> -Valerie Mates
>> Grex staff
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Valerie Mates * Web Developer * http://www.valeriemates.com
>> valerie@cyberspace.org * (734) 995-6716
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Valerie Mates * Web Developer * http://www.valeriemates.com
valerie@cyberspace.org * (734) 995-6716
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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willard
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response 51 of 163:
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Sep 25 19:10 UTC 2000 |
Hahaha, Kevin, you crack me up.
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bru
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response 52 of 163:
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Sep 25 20:33 UTC 2000 |
willard, you are making an ass of yourself. Not only are your actions wrong,
they are reprehensiblebecause you area a staff member on another system. They
don't allow these programs over there, why should they be allowed here. If
someone got into these programs and used the to damage the system, who do you
think would catch part of the responsibility?
Personally, I think they should do more. I think your account should be
deleted. You should be barred for a period of time. Yout position on M-net
should be revoked.
You are intentionally doing things to disrupt this system and they are being
more than tolerant of your activity. Maintainig it couldeven be considered
criminal if you keep pushing it.
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willard
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response 53 of 163:
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Sep 25 23:23 UTC 2000 |
Hey Bruce, you wanna know what I think? I think you can go fuck
yourself. Good and hard. With a broomstick. That's what I think.
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tod
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response 54 of 163:
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Sep 25 23:54 UTC 2000 |
So where is this AUP, anyhow?
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danr
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response 55 of 163:
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Sep 26 00:08 UTC 2000 |
re #53: Mike, I don't think Bruce really gives a shit what you think. Nor do I.
We love you, but we wish you'd quit acting like such a baby.
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willard
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response 56 of 163:
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Sep 26 00:10 UTC 2000 |
#55: You know what I think, Dan? I'll tell you. I think that as
soon as Bruce finishes with that broomstick, you should go for a
round.
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jp2
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response 57 of 163:
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Sep 26 00:11 UTC 2000 |
This response has been erased.
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russ
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response 58 of 163:
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Sep 26 01:52 UTC 2000 |
So let me get this straight. willard, who has made a point of
imposing on Grex's hospitality and everyone's patience and enjoying
every minute of it, is now breaking the rules of order on Grex... and
bragging about it?
willard is giving Grex a cause of action that has *nothing* to do with
his being the verbal equivalent of a diarrhetic bovine in the living room?
willard is practically *asking* to be thrown off, and this time in a way
that's actually likely to achieve it? And worst of all (for him), in a
way that leaves him with no grounds on which to honestly malign (as
opposed to abusing) Grex's commitment to free speech?
This is hilarious.
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willard
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response 59 of 163:
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Sep 26 02:01 UTC 2000 |
I'm sorry.
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keesan
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response 60 of 163:
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Sep 26 02:16 UTC 2000 |
Is it possible Willard is trying to be amusing, rather than abusing? I canot
imagine anyone keeping a straight face while making some of his statements.
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twinkie
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response 61 of 163:
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Sep 26 03:21 UTC 2000 |
re: 58 -- I think the point willard is making, is that he's being punished
for a *very* stretched interpretation of a virtually nonexistent policy.
In a very real way, willard is being singled out. Whether he plays nice in
your sandbox is irrelevant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of Grex's
purposes to promote learning Unix? Again, willard's knowlege of Unix is
irrelevant. It is not (or rather, should not be) the function of Grex staff
to determine who does, and does not "know" Unix. Nor should it be the function
of Grex staff to determine what is, and is not an acceptable compilation of
code, unless it's destructive to the system.
Certainly, one could argue that an idle killer is "destructive" in that it
means a marginally longer wait in the famed Grexqueue. But, does it completely
prevent people from using the system? More importantly, is there any scale
on which to guage exactly what kind of impact the program had?
That aside, calling a masstel script "destructive" is asinine to the nth
degree, unless this script is being used in such a way that Grex literally
becomes unusable. Inherently, it's not different from tel.
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other
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response 62 of 163:
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Sep 26 04:24 UTC 2000 |
resp:42 lol
willard, you're pathetic. occasionally entertaining, too, but only when you
get pissy.
looking forward to the next installment. (who needs soap operas, anyway?)
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janc
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response 63 of 163:
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Sep 26 04:41 UTC 2000 |
Willard is being singled out? How does treating willard exactly the
same way as hundreds of other users constitute "singling him out"? The
only thing that makes his case different is this item, which he started
himself.
And what have we done to him that is so horrid? Inserted messages into
his program telling him not to run such things on Grex. Wow, that's
cruel and unusual punishment, isn't it?
Sure we promote learning Unix here. One of the things we promote is
learning to share resources in a shared environment. A pretty
fundamental part of learning to use Unix, if you ask me.
True, Grex doesn't have an "acceptable use policy". Thats why, for
things that might not be completely obviously wrong we generally start
by telling the user this isn't acceptable. Putting messages into their
programs is an effective way to tell people this. (We got into this
habit because many of the people who come to Grex to "try out" various
annoying things don't give us their real email addresses and don't
bother to even look to see if they have mail on Grex. Putting a message
inside the program we don't want them to be running is a better way to
get through to them then sending them email.) We only nuke people
without talking first if they are doing pretty obviously nasty stuff -
fork bombs back when those actually worked, spamming, filling up the
disk, using Grex to try to crack other sites, etc.)
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jerryr
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response 64 of 163:
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Sep 26 10:10 UTC 2000 |
y'all are having such a good time in this discussion, i really hate to insert
a question, but i would really like to know.
russ talks about grex' "hospitality" - doesn't everyone who creates a loginid
here have the same rights and resposibilities? or is there a class system
that i am unaware of - hosts and everyone else?
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willard
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response 65 of 163:
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Sep 26 12:45 UTC 2000 |
As far as I can tell, if you're annoying in Agora, staff members have
more freedom to use their superuser privileges to open personal and
private documents in your home directory.
The fact that these files were intentionally closed to public eyes
should be an indication that I don't want them opened, wouldn't you
think? I don't believe that was even considered before scott waltzed
right into my filespace and "helped himself", so to say.
Scott has already demonstrated quite vocally that he does not like me
personally. That by itself opens a large window for impropriety, and
under these circumstances, he should have passed any staff action
against my account on to a less biased and more responsible staff
member.
I personally would've preferred an E-Mail or a telegram to this
feeling of being violated. I have no idea what else scott opened
while he was in my filespace -- he very well may have deemed it
necessary to open my E-Mail. If that's the case, then shame on you,
scott. Shame on you for even opening my files in the first place,
because I don't consider any of my closed files to be less private
than my E-Mail.
I hope that the Grex membership sees the implications of turning a
blind eye to Scott's behavior. Of the dozens of users that the staff
claims to take disciplinary action against on a weekly basis, I
challenge the staff to name ONE, myself excluded, that members of the
staff have publically expressed distaste for. *THAT* is why this is
different, and like it or not, that is why my case is special.
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willard
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response 66 of 163:
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Sep 26 12:52 UTC 2000 |
(The difference is between "There's someone I've never seen before
running fork bombs and evading the idle timer" and "I finally have an
excuse to get back at willard.")
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eeyore
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response 67 of 163:
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Sep 26 13:15 UTC 2000 |
Translation:
"I was running something illeagal on Grex and didn't want to
be caught, so I burried the files, but got caught anyway so
now I'm going to piss and moan because I think I can tie my
being caught to the fact that I've been a real fuck to everybody."
Guess what: You'd get the same treatment even if you were not Willard, but
somebody that nobody had ever heard of. The whole matter of being caught
using illegal scripts, and the fact that staff dealt with you (just like they
normally would), has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with your prior posts in Agora
and elsewhere.
I basically see this as an episode of "Why yes, officer, I did steal that
merchandise, but just because you and several witness watched me take it off
of the shelf and stick it in my bag, it doesn't mean that you get to go into
my bag to take the stolen merchandise!"
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ashke
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response 68 of 163:
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Sep 26 13:28 UTC 2000 |
"shame on you"? Oh god, Willard, please tell me you aren't THAT juvenille.
If you put it on a system, it's not private. It's not your computer. And
the staff have a responsibility to maintain that system. Fact, you ran both
idle-zapper programs and masstel programs. If you want to deny it, go ahead,
but considering you have admitted the former so many time saying "but so
what!" and the latter you entered an item in agora about, there isn't much
point to it.
The staff here have the right to get rid of those things they deem
unacceptable. And you know that they are unacceptable. You wouldn't put up
with it on M-net, don't expect special favors here. You can cry "I'm bein'
oppressed" all you want, but the simple fact is that you did something that
was not allowed, and it was disposed of.
If you want private, run your own little system, keep all the root and staff
passwords to yourself, and hope that no little hacker messes it up. There
is no expectation of privacy on a public forum that you don't own and have
the priviledge of having an account on. If you don't want it here? Move it.
You worried about your e-mail being rifled through, you're a smart guy,
.forward your mail. But don't sit here and cry foul when you are fully aware
of the reprecutions of your actions.
The staff don't go through directories or files or email with the same abandon
that some businesses do. It's their machine. So grow up, or leave. I'm sick
of this, and of you slandering people for doing their job. It's not our
responsibility to clean up after you, but here we are, doing it.
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scott
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response 69 of 163:
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Sep 26 13:45 UTC 2000 |
I love when people start vilifying me to try to cover up their own problems.
Maybe if I wasn't burdened with being a Grex staffer I'd have some free time
to go hang out on M-Net.
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ashke
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response 70 of 163:
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Sep 26 13:53 UTC 2000 |
and for those who don't know :vilify -fied -fying 1: to lower in estimation
or importance 2: to utter slanderous and abusive statements against. Defame
see Malign
Hmm....works for me. Good word, Scott.
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anderyn
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response 71 of 163:
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Sep 26 13:56 UTC 2000 |
I'm just going to say that I thought it was a given that staff could look
at your directories and files if they felt a need to, at least on grex and
on m-net. So what's the big outrage?
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jazz
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response 72 of 163:
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Sep 26 14:28 UTC 2000 |
Anyone who's seen Mike's entires in party (regrettably lost at this
point) when he was first running his idlezapper knows that he was fully aware
that he wasn't supposed to be running it.
And, Sunny, a little hacker *did* mess up the system Willard helps to
admin - haven't you been reading the recent news about Arbornet?
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willard
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response 73 of 163:
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Sep 26 14:29 UTC 2000 |
I've got some naked pictures of scott's mom. If anyone wants to come
look at them, you have to be on Grex's staff and be willing to abuse
your root privileges. Can you resist the temptation?
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ashke
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response 74 of 163:
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Sep 26 14:37 UTC 2000 |
I do remember reading about that. Hmm... Look at that. Actual complaint,
to whining, to temper tantrum, back to the old Mike's behavior. Wow. Wasn't
the productive.
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