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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 106 responses total. |
scott
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response 50 of 106:
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Dec 19 23:52 UTC 2000 |
Ditto.
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gelinas
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response 51 of 106:
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Dec 20 02:32 UTC 2000 |
First, it is already a matter of state law: the County boards were not
established by local ordinance; the State established the County boards.
So it is *completely* the province of the State legislature to determine
the standards its creature will use.
Second, I do not believe it is possible to carry a weapon, at all, without
a concealed-carry weapon permit. Put on a belt holster and it is not
"concealed", right? Until you put on your coat to go outside. Oops.
(I'm going to try to find the Michigan Compiled Laws online, to double-check
the accuracy of my belief.) I do know that I would not carry a hand-gun
without a CCW. (Possible exception: with a hunting license, while
actually hunting.)
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senna
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response 52 of 106:
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Dec 20 06:10 UTC 2000 |
Wow, John. I'm very impressed by how well-thought you are concerning this
situation.
Frankly, the thought of some of the customers I deal with at Meijer carrying
concealed weapons is frightening. This shouldn't be misconstrued as an
indictment of all customers (a vast majority are polite even if they are upset
with us), but there are enough people that get *substantially* hostile that
I think depending on a person's good sense is not always the best idea.
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gelinas
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response 53 of 106:
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Dec 20 06:51 UTC 2000 |
I found the Michigan Compiled Laws at
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/law/
The relevant sections read:
"Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto,
a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any
other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as
such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or
otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in
his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed
by the person.
"2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her
person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or
occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of
business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to
carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the
pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such
license" (Act 328 of 1931, 750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
[M.S.A. 28.424 ]).
and
"Sec. 43513. (1) A person may carry, transport, or possess a firearm,
a bow and arrow, or a crossbow without a hunting license while at
or going to and from a recognized rifle or target range, trap, or
skeet shooting ground, or archery range if the firearm or bow and
arrow or crossbow, while being carried or transported, is as follows:
(a) The firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and either
enclosed in a case or carried in the trunk of a vehicle" (Act 451
of 1994 324.43513 Carrying, transporting, or possessing firearm,
bow and arrow, or crossbow; hunting license not required; carrying
or possessing unloaded weapon).
(The latter section is from the Natural Resources and Environmental
Protection Act.)
So I guess one *could* _walk_ down Main Street with pistol in plain sight.
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scg
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response 54 of 106:
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Dec 20 07:06 UTC 2000 |
If I'm remembering correctly, Ann Arbor has local ordinances about that.
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johnnie
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response 55 of 106:
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Dec 20 14:40 UTC 2000 |
Legal or not, it's a sure way to find yourself surrounded by police
officers with guns drawn.
While I understand the desire to (sometimes, anyway) carry a weapon for
"protection", it gives me the heebie-jeebies to think that they'll give
permits out to just about any idiot. And in answer to Dan's question
above, I have been in situations where--at the time--I might have felt
better had I been packin', retrospect shows that a)I didn't need a gun,
and b)a gun (in my hands or others') may well have made things worse.
I also wonder if carrying a gun might cause certain persons to put
themselves in situations they might otherwise avoid (and if doing so
might therefore end with them using the gun, even if "justified").
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jep
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response 56 of 106:
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Dec 20 17:58 UTC 2000 |
re #52: I have changed my views on this subject, and a few others
(capital punishmnet for another) in recent years.
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bru
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response 57 of 106:
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Dec 20 19:45 UTC 2000 |
I have been in situations where I felt I might need my gun.
I have had my gun in easy reach on several of those occasions, while waiting
for the police to respond to the 9-1-1 call.
I think the thing about open holter carry is that they will cite you for
disturbing the peace.
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albaugh
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response 58 of 106:
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Dec 20 21:45 UTC 2000 |
According to a Plymouth Observer article on this subject, the proposed new
"shall" law increases the age of eligibility to 21 from the "may" law 18.
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aaron
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response 59 of 106:
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Dec 20 22:02 UTC 2000 |
re #56: Capital punish-M-Net? ;-)
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polygon
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response 60 of 106:
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Dec 20 22:09 UTC 2000 |
Some years ago in Ingham County, I was a juror in a case against a young
man for "assault with a deadly weapon". He walking on his own down the
street with a hunting knife visible in his back pocket, leaving a party
which had been noisy enough to attract police attention. In the hearing
of nearby police officers, somebody yelled "He's got a knife!" The police
officers -- rookies -- pursued and cornered him with guns drawn. The
police contended that the young man threatened them with the knife before
dropping the knife and submitting to arrest. A disinterested neighbor
contradicted the police testimony.
(We found him not guilty.)
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mary
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response 61 of 106:
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Dec 20 23:55 UTC 2000 |
I'd rather gun legislation avoided concealed weapons and instead
went the other way. All guns carried on your person must be
worn in such a way as they are visible to all.
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rcurl
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response 62 of 106:
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Dec 21 02:53 UTC 2000 |
How many here have ever called 911, and for what? (I have called once -
for my own medical emergency. I did not need a gun.)
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drew
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response 63 of 106:
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Dec 21 03:08 UTC 2000 |
I think it should matter less whether the weapon is "concealed" than how fast
it can be drawn and used.
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russ
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response 64 of 106:
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Dec 21 03:43 UTC 2000 |
I find the attitudes here disturbing. People who should know better
are using the language of bigotry to attack others who wish to exercise
their right of self-defense, and to support their desire to exclude
these others from the normal course of life.
I don't use the word bigotry lightly. This item has seen some amazing
displays of rank prejudice by people who ought to know better,
stereotyping the group of potential CCW holders as *dangers to
society*. This alleged danger has not played out in any state which
has adopted shall-issue (CCW holders in Florida, to give one example,
are far more law-abiding than the public at large), but it doesn't
matter. Facts don't matter, what matters is fear and prejudice.
(I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for making this analogy, but WTF...)
The same people displaying hoplophobic bigotry would be all over anyone
who claimed that young African-American males were dangerous and ought
to be restricted, despite the fact that actual crime statistics lend
support to this point of view. That ought to be cause enough for them
to re-examine their assumptions.
But they won't. Because this isn't about facts, or rights. It's about
fear, and the desire to suppress and restrict people for what one is
afraid they *might* do. And who cares about the Constitution if you
can get away with it, eh?
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scg
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response 65 of 106:
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Dec 21 03:50 UTC 2000 |
I think nobody is pushing for visible guns, because they know that most people
would be really scared to see that people around them had guns, and that would
cause a great uproar. So, of course, the solution is to require that people
carrying guns hide them, so that those around them won't know to be scared
until it's too late.
I've called 911 a few times: when a driver cut me off and caused me to hit
her, and did some expensive damage to my bike, when my car got broken into,
when I saw a serious looking car accident, when I was driving home from work
late at night and saw a car in front of me that kept weaving from the right
shoulder to the left shoulder of the freeway and back, and probably another
time or two. 911 was called on my behalf once, when I hit my head hard in
a bike crash and was pretty out of it.
Of those, the medical emergencies probably aren't relevant to the gun control
discussion. When my car was broken into I didn't notice it happening, but
the person who did it went to enough trouble to disable the car's interior
lights that probably even walking by would have scared him/her off. In the
case of the driver who hit me, or the drunk driver who was driving in front
of me, shooting them might have taken care of the problem, but still wouldn't
have been a good thing to do.
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scg
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response 66 of 106:
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Dec 21 03:54 UTC 2000 |
Russ slipped in. Um... Insisting on being able to carry a gun at all times
for protection or whatever, is a sign that somebody thinks they are likely
to run into situations where the appropriate answer would be to shoot
somebody. Being a young African American male is a sign that somebody is
young, male, has dark skin, has ancestors from Africa, and may be
statistically more likely to have come from a poor, urban, neighborhood. I
don't think you could possibly back up that statement, Russ.
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gelinas
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response 67 of 106:
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Dec 21 04:06 UTC 2000 |
My major objection to 'may issue' is displayed adequately in this item.
Imagine trying to convince three people chosen at random from those responding
here that you needed to carry a weapon, concealed or otherwise.
The members of the counties' CCW boards are _not_ chosen at random: they
include the chief prosecuting attorney and the chief law enforcement officer.
Saying "I need to carry" can be seen as a challenge to their abilities (or
willingness) to do their jobs. Not a way to win friends and influence people,
is it? (Most members of the CCW boards probably don't even think about it
in those terms, though.)
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mcnally
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response 68 of 106:
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Dec 21 05:27 UTC 2000 |
re #66: be a little more honest -- there *are* other uses for a gun
than shooting someone. brandishing one is probably a pretty effective
defense technique *in the right situation.*
the flip side, though, is that whenever a loaded gun is involved there
is *some* non-zero probability that the outcome will be that someone gets
shot. the whole debate should realistically be conducted in terms of
(a) what *is* the non-zero probability that the gun will be used to
shoot someone, (b) under what circumstances is that a bad thing / good
thing?, and (c) how does knowledge that a gun is involved change the
behavior of people in a given situation? as past "discussions" have
shown, there's more than enough room for disagreement on those issues..
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happyboy
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response 69 of 106:
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Dec 21 12:31 UTC 2000 |
rane...lots of times, but always as witness to events such as
car accidents, dangerous situations in a crisis home, various
assaults, and an attempted rape.
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mdw
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response 70 of 106:
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Dec 21 14:58 UTC 2000 |
I called 911 once, to report a drunk driver. I didn't think it was
particularly an emergency, but when I looked in the phone book for
police, 911 seemed to be the most appropriate number listed.
Unfortunately, I did this from a campus phone, so I actually ended up
talking to UM DPS--and I think their phone was even busy at first, which
didn't inspire me with confidence.
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rcurl
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response 71 of 106:
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Dec 21 15:28 UTC 2000 |
I presume, happyboy, that you didn't need a gun to go along with your
911 calls?
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ashke
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response 72 of 106:
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Dec 21 15:30 UTC 2000 |
I have called 911 several times and had excellent response. It was all
concerning a medical issue and when we lived in dexter, the response from HVA
was great.
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mooncat
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response 73 of 106:
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Dec 21 16:31 UTC 2000 |
I've called 911 about three times... and not one of those situations
would have been helped by having a gun.
One, I was driving home to Saginaw from Ann Arbor, it was late and
snowing and I saw a car spin off into a ditch (they were going south).
I don't think anyone was hurt, but they obviously weren't getting out
of that mess without help- so 911.
Two- I was out on my balcony talking on the phone and saw an accident
(someone was rearended) so I called 911.
Three- well, I didn't place the call but I was there and a friend
seemed to need immediate medical help.
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rcurl
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response 74 of 106:
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Dec 21 17:37 UTC 2000 |
And you didn't even need a gun?
y
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