response 49 of 157:

Sep 8 04:24 UTC 2000

Do the "offenders" use the same IP address every time?  I don't.

response 51 of 157:

Sep 8 05:47 UTC 2000

I think I can count as one of the people who is finding the complaining worse
than what is being complained about at this point, but I'm not sure.  I'm
certainly kindof mystified by the list that seems to be going around of people
who should be objected to.  For the most part, I don't understand the
objections.  Iggy, for example, has certainly been saying things that are
somewhat different than some of the other stuff I've been reading on Grex for
years, but Grex would be awfully boring if it never changed.  Others who have
expressed the view that the "M-Net Invasion" wasn't so bad also seem to have
been added to the list of evil people, whithout having participated in much
if any of the supposedly evil behavior themselves.  I woudln't mind seeing
the criticism of those people stop, since if nothing else it feels like
beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm not sure I want to spend a lot
of time complaining about the complaining either.

I have far more mixed feelings about users who go through entering countless
nothing items.  I find it annoying.  We do seem to be down to only one user
doing it, though, since as predicted the other one has gotten bored and gone
away.  I have to admit that I'm not sure what the motivation behind those
items was and is.  I suspect it's an experiment to see how we'll react, and
I don't think that makes it any less annoying.  Still, it's worth nothing that
both willard and jp2 do seem to be extremely smart people, who in addition
to their prolific item entering have also made some real contributions to
discussions of the sort that I do enjoy.  While I wouldn't mind seeing them
enter fewer of the items I don't like, I think it would be a real loss for
Grex to chase either of them away.

And, as several others here have said, there's the free speech issue.  I know
what kind of speech annoys or offends me, but what I say may annoy or offend
somebody else.  While I think most people are reasonably good at figuring out
social rules and not sayhing or doing things that are going to offend too many
people, unless that's their goal or their goal makes it unavoidable, heavy
handed enforcement of those social rules is a far less pleasant prospect. 
In this case, richard is calling for silencing those whose conferencing style
he doesn't like.  In turn, others have for years been advocating silencing
Richard.  Meanwhile, other people here are annoyed by those who call for
silencing Richard.  All of that makes for good debate, but I don't think any
of the people involved could be forcibly silenced without creating a slippery
slope where the next person people decide they don't like would be silenced
too.

response 53 of 157:

Sep 8 12:08 UTC 2000

I find it offensive that you people are interpreting my activity as
'willard being a {vandal,nuisance,asshole,sociopath}'.  You might not
agree with what I say, how much I have to say, and how frequently I
say it.  That's fine.  But cast me aside, and you become the first to
renounce Grex's long-standing tradition of freedom of expression.

Up until chamberl 'skipped town', he was entering just as many items
as I was.  He always has, and if he was still here, he still would be.
Now that he's gone, I wish he was back.  I'm sure a lot of people do.

If you people are serious about extinguishing this flame, more power
to you.  You don't have to block my IP address, close my account, or
hack PicoSpan to restrict activity.  Just tell me to go, and I will
leave.  But never forget the precedent you've set.

response 55 of 157:

Sep 8 12:53 UTC 2000

Granted there's a lot of ill will toward willard and some others.

A lot of that ill will they brought with them, so it's no surprised it's
bounced back on them.

Still, I'd rather be on an open system even if it means having to put up with
a few twits.

response 57 of 157:

Sep 8 14:02 UTC 2000

Hahaha.  :)

response 59 of 157:

Sep 8 14:51 UTC 2000

If Grex starts sitebanning people just for entering too many items, I think
I'd probably leave.  Site banning an IP or range of IPs should be an extreme
last resort, if for no other reason than that it tends to hurt innocent
parties as well.

response 61 of 157:

Sep 8 17:53 UTC 2000

I am very much against blocking IP addresses or anything else like that. 
We're open.  There have always been some people who can't resist a cheap 
opportunity to try to ruin things for others, due to their own 
inadequacies.  That's just one of the risks of being open.

response 63 of 157:

Sep 8 19:12 UTC 2000

I kind of think md is adding a bit of charm to Mnet

response 65 of 157:

Sep 8 19:46 UTC 2000

Some of his items are actually interesting.. he's failing to meet the Willard
Standard of item entry.

response 69 of 157:

Sep 9 04:24 UTC 2000

My assumption has been that the "mnetters" (with a couple of humorless 
exceptions) are finding my items and responses hilarious, but don't 
want it to show.  Foolish pride, etc.  All I can say is, *I* giggle 
over some of the stuff I enter as I'm typing it, which in my case is 
always a good sign.  In any case, jep, I am not "imitating willard" or 
anything stupid like that.  I'm still me.

response 71 of 157:

Sep 9 04:54 UTC 2000

Sara made a good point about 30 responses ago: What makes anybody think that
Agora is easy on any newuser....EVER?  It's large, scary, unwieldy, and full
of lots of things that are just not interesting to everybody.  Oh well.  Quite
frankly, at any time I can have at least 50 items in Agora under a non-forget
flag....probably a better percentage than any of my other conferances.  I like
it *because* it shows what a different batch of people we are...from our good
moods, to our bad moods, to happy and sad, through humor twisted and straight.

But I think that if I was a newuser, and I was reading this Agora for the
first time, I would be scared.  Probably enough to not want to ever come
back.  Because what if I did or said something that others did not like.  Then
they'd start roasting me!!!  And that would make me leave.

At this point, I have to say that I'm really saddned by this whole debate.
First, that we would come down to the idea of actually limiting something.
I really feel a strong sense of "Limit the people I don't like, but don't
limit me!" coming from a lot of you.  The world doesn't work like that.  Over
many years, a lot of people have worked very hard to make Grex what it is:
A large group of people that come together to talk, post and discuss many
different ideas with an open mind and heart.  Our goal has always been to be
as open as possible, to the point that we are currently working on a court
battle for Free Speech.  What hyppocrites we are if we want to say whatever
we want, but want to cut back on the people that annoy us.

Russ's idea of shutting out the ip's of "Offenders" is appalling.  What is
considered an offense?  And why do we feel that we have the right to shut
somebody down for speaking freely?

And why does everybody need to make this an Us & Them idea?  Grex and MNet
have always been at least semi-friendly to each other.  All out war is
becomeing a little irritating.

Fine, Willards posts tend to irritate me.  But I have no right to make him
stop posting them on Grex.  It is his privilage to do so.  Quite frankly,
there are several other people who's posts irritate me.  I'm sure that mine
irritate some people.  Oh well.

People that keep saying "Oh, ignore him, he'll go away"......well geuss
what....if you would shut up about it, maybe the posts would stop.

Hell, maybe he'd be less irritating in his posts if we treated him the way
we would anybody else.  Like a Grexer.  'Cause that's what he is.

And quite frankly, at this point, I would much rather read his stuff, then
all of the "Real Grexers" who are too busy backstabbing each other and MNet.

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