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Grex > Coop11 > #232: Summary of Grex's Credit Card Experiment | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 98 responses total. |
aruba
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response 45 of 98:
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Feb 16 22:38 UTC 2001 |
Valerie suggested to me in email that maybe we should try to fight the rule
saying that we have to keep our account for another 6 months. I checked our
"Merchant Application and Agreement" (The thing we signed), and it says:
By signing this Merchant Application, I acknowledge that I have also
received Merchant Agreement # __________. I have read the Merchant
Agreement and understand it. I understand that the Merchant Agreement is
incorporated into this Application and that both documents constitute my
contract with Bank and Cardservice. The term of this Agreement is six (6)
months as specified in paragraph 3.04 of the Merchant Agreement.
The line for the number of the Merchant Agreement is blank, and we don't
seem to have one, so I think we never received one. There's nothing else
about the term of the contract on what we have, so wherever it says that we
are obliged to keep paying is on something we never got.
But then, maybe by signing the agreement with the line left blank, we
abrogated our rights to get one. Dunno. Anyone know any more about
contracts?
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flem
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response 46 of 98:
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Feb 17 00:02 UTC 2001 |
No, but here's a breakdown of my records involving Charge Solutions fees.
Month Total Service Access
=======================================================
May 42.25 25.00 17.25 (69 at $.25 ea.)
June 18.00 -- 18.00 (36 at $.50 ea.)
Jul 19.50 -- 19.50 (39 at $.50 ea.)
Aug 145.00 -- 145.00 (290 at $.50 ea.)
Sep No bill received
Oct 29.00 25.00 4.00 (16 at $.25 ea.)
I'm pretty sure we were turned on by March, but I don't seem to have a
record of March or April's bills. There are only two breakdown items,
a monthly service charge and a per access network usage fee.
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aruba
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response 47 of 98:
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Feb 17 04:34 UTC 2001 |
Thanks Greg.
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devnull
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response 48 of 98:
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Feb 18 18:30 UTC 2001 |
Thawte certificates only cost $125/yr for the first year, and then there's
a renewal fee of $100/yr.
Perhaps the thing to do would be to set up a webserver to collect the data,
which someone would then manually log into, and then punch the numbers into
a traditional credit card machine?
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aaron
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response 49 of 98:
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Feb 19 19:56 UTC 2001 |
Did the company claim that it requires a full six months to cancel, or is
that your interpretation of the contract. Many contracts that start out with
a minimum term also contain provisions governing what happens at the end of
that term. It may, for example, become monthly.
Assuming that there is only one merchant account, the clerical omission of
the account number wouldn't create any ambiguity between the parties, so I
wouldn't expect that to get you out of the contract. However, there is nothing
wrong with raising the issue if you want to negotiate your way out. Frankly,
I doubt that the sums of money are so significant that they won't let you
cancel if you raise a fuss, no matter what the contract says.
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flem
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response 50 of 98:
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Feb 19 21:50 UTC 2001 |
The six months thing is what they told me when I called to cancel it in
October. I imagine they also told Mark when he called recently.
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other
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response 51 of 98:
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Feb 19 22:59 UTC 2001 |
If we have to call our credit card issuer and cancel it and get a
replacement to put an end to this, then I say do it.
If they want to sue us for the $210, I will frankly be amazed. That's
probably less than what it will cost them in attorney's fees to file the
papers.
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scott
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response 52 of 98:
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Feb 20 00:02 UTC 2001 |
Hmm... if Greg indeed called them to cancel during the previous 6 month block,
can we use that to claim we should have been out of it when the end of that
block came?
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other
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response 53 of 98:
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Feb 20 00:53 UTC 2001 |
My take on it is that if we express a desire to terminate the agreement
at the next available opportunity (time of renewal) the only way we would
be obligated to continue the service is if we continued to USE the
service.
I seriously suspect shady business practices on the part of this company,
and if they put up any kind of fight, we should be on the phone to the
Better Business Bureau the next minute.
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aruba
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response 54 of 98:
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Feb 20 04:51 UTC 2001 |
Re #49: What they told me is that we could only terminate the contract at
certain times, which occur every 6 months. Since that isn't specified on
the paper we signed, I presume it is specified in paragraph 3.04b of the
"Membership Agreement", which we never got. Actually, we did just get it -
I had them fax a copy to Dan, and I have to go over to his house and pick it
up. (I'm booked tomorrow, but I'll try to do it Wednesday.)
Re #50: What did you tell them in October, Greg?
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keesan
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response 55 of 98:
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Feb 20 17:28 UTC 2001 |
Mark, could you use a fax machine? We have an extra that you have to unplug
from the phone line when you are not using it or it will answer the phone
despite how you set the phone-fax switch (and it also will not send) but it
otherwises receives faxes just fine. (We can also give you a fax machine that
sends but won't receive due to jammed paper cutter).
Then Dan or the credit card company could fax to you.
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flem
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response 56 of 98:
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Feb 21 00:50 UTC 2001 |
re #54: I told them I wanted to close the account. They told me that I
either had to jump through the hoops, or pay a large fee to get out of the
contract early.
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aruba
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response 57 of 98:
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Feb 21 03:14 UTC 2001 |
Re #55: That's kind of you, Sindi. Let me think that over. I have limited
desk space, but it would come in handy now and then.
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keesan
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response 58 of 98:
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Feb 22 00:23 UTC 2001 |
Under the desk when not in use?
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aruba
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response 59 of 98:
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Feb 22 01:11 UTC 2001 |
I asked Cardservice International to fax Dan a copy of our Merchant
Agreement, and I picked it up this evening. Here is the relevant portion.
It was printed in such small type that it took up only 2.5 inches of the
contract.
3.04 Termination
The term of this agreement shall be six (6) months unless otherwise provided
for herein. Notwithstanding this six (6) month term, and any renewals of
that term provided for in paragraph 3.05 of this Agreement, Merchant may
terminate this Agreement by giving thirty (30) days written notice to Bank
and Cardservice International and concurrently with said notice, paying
Cardservice International $300.00 as an early cancellation fee.
Furthermore, if this Agreement is terminated because of Merchant's breach of
any of its obligations, such termination shall also be deemed an early
cancellation and will require the Merchant to pay to Cardservice
International the early cancellation fee of $300.00. Merchant and
Cardservice International mutually agree that said $300.00 is a reasonable
estimate of the costs and expenses of the costs Cardservice International
will incur as a result of any early cancellation of this Agreement by
Merchant.
For a period of six (6) months from the effective date of this Agreement,
Cardservice International will not increase the initial discount rate
offered to Merchant except as that rate is affected by any increased charges
to Cardservice International in Interchange, Assessments and Communications
costs from MasterCard, VISA, and communications suppliers, or any other fees
beyond Cardservice International's control. The rate guarantee is void if
the Merchant has a higher than allowable percentage of keyed transactions,
retrievals or chargebacks or if this Agreement is in a renewal period.
Notwithstanding the six (6) month term, Bank may terminate this Agreement
without cause upon thirty (30) days prior written notice to merchant.
Bank may terminate this agreement immediately for cause if any of the
following occur:
(a) If Merchant is or becomes bankrupt or is otherwise unable to pay its
debts as they become due; or
(b) If Merchant violates any term, condition, covenant, or warranty of this
agreement; or
(c) If Merchant is identified on the Combined Terminated Merchant File.
MERCHANT ACKNOWLEDGES THAT SUCH IDENTIFICATION IS GROUNDS FOR IMMEDIATE
TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT AND OF IMMEDIATE TERMINATION OF SERVICE.
From the effective date of any termination, Merchant's rights to make Card
transactions, to deposit transactions with Bank and Cardservice
International, and to use sales draft forms, credit card forms, promotional
material and/or any other items provided or made available through Bank and
Cardservice International shall cease. However, Merchant's obligations in
connection with any Transaction Record accepted by Bank and Cardservice
International before or after termination shall survive such termination,
including, without limitation, Merchant's chargeback obligations. Following
the effective date of termination, Merchant shall maintain funds on deposit
on account avilable to Bank for a reasonable time. Based upon Cardholder
and Issuer chargeback rights, the amount of funds shall be reasonably
adequate to cover all chargeback deposit charges, refunds, and fees,
including, but not limited to, costs for accounting, investigation, and
account management incurred by Bank and Cardservice International pursuant
to this Agreement, MasterCard or Visa operating regulations, or the
regulations of any processing entity, shall be maintained in such account.
Bank is hereby irrevocably authorized by Merchant to charge such account or
other accounts maintained by Merchant for the amount of such matters.
Merchant shall pay bank for all such matters upon demand by Bank, together
with all costs and expenses incurred by Bank and Cardservice International,
including reasonable attorneys' fees.
3.05 Automatic Renewal
This Agreement will be automatically renewed for successive periods of six
(6) months unless either party notifies the other, in writing, of its
intention not to renew no less than thirty (30) days and no more than ninety
(90) days prior to the end of each term.
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aruba
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response 60 of 98:
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Feb 22 01:13 UTC 2001 |
I have to say, that scares me, and I feel bad about signing the contract
without making sure I had read the agreement (which we never got until now).
Anyone still think we should keep our account with this company past the
first point when we can get out of it?
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other
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response 61 of 98:
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Feb 22 20:39 UTC 2001 |
No f'ing way.
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flem
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response 62 of 98:
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Feb 22 23:13 UTC 2001 |
Does anybody remember reading and signing such a thing? Or even just signing
it? I'm quite positive I've never seen that document before, and if nobody
else has, either, well...
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other
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response 63 of 98:
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Feb 23 00:48 UTC 2001 |
If nobody else has either, then we signed a contract we didn't read, and
we deserve what we get.
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scg
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response 64 of 98:
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Feb 23 00:57 UTC 2001 |
Does anybody know if we signed that contract without reading it, or if we
signed a different contract (with or without reading it)?
Either way, signing contracts without keeping a copy is generally a bad thing.
If we do assume we signed this, I suppose the next question is how enforcable
it is.
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flem
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response 65 of 98:
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Feb 23 04:30 UTC 2001 |
I remember seeing a copy of an application form for CardService, that was read
carefully and signed, but it did not contain anything like that level of
detail. What I'm wondering is if either a) we somehow implicitly agreed to
this contract without ever seeing a copy of it (by signing the application,
e.g.) or b) we were supposed to get and sign a copy of this way back there,
but never did (lost in the mail or something).
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mdw
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response 66 of 98:
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Feb 23 04:43 UTC 2001 |
Usually these agreements say something like "you agree to to blab blab
blab the terms of the customer support contract blah blah blab may be
changed without notice blab blab blab'. Sometimes they also say "a copy
of which is available with the application" which normally means they
don't hand it to you unless you make a very big fuss, and sometimes not
even then.
Apparently, in America, you're not supposed to read the fine print.
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aruba
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response 67 of 98:
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Feb 23 20:04 UTC 2001 |
I explained this back in resp:45. We signed the "Merchant Application",
which implicitly includes the "Merchant Agreement", which we were supposed
to receive a copy of but didn't.
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mdw
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response 68 of 98:
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Feb 23 23:06 UTC 2001 |
Ie, we didn't make a big fuss. Yup.
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flem
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response 69 of 98:
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Feb 23 23:17 UTC 2001 |
Ah. I see. My apologies for not noticing this the first time. :(
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