response 40 of 78:

Jul 9 22:00 UTC 1999

The thing is that while grex is getting in a financially strong position,
it is not attracting *that* many more active users.  The conferences
overrall level of activity is I would imagine fairly stable, whereas to
achieve grex's true potential, you need more people participating.  How do
you *get* more people?  

One way is to put dialins in other locations, so that Grex can develop a
broader base than it has.  If people can dialin as opposed to using up
time on their ISP to telnet here, they will be more likely to come.  It
would foster the idea that grex is more than a local ann arbor bbs.

Another way would be to get a new ISP offering better connections and
bandwith so people do graphics on confs and in their homepages. As long as
grexis text only, there is a signficant segment of people who wont ever
bother coming here.

If grex has succeeded at what it is, the challenge is to see if it can
grow from there.  

response 42 of 78:

Jul 9 22:31 UTC 1999

Re resp:40 -  Golly!  For once, I find myself not only not annoyed by
rchard, but indeed pleased at the cogent and coherent explanation he's given.

And some ppl say that there's no such thing as miracles!  :-)

response 44 of 78:

Jul 10 11:54 UTC 1999

        Ahrm, GREX loses money?

response 46 of 78:

Jul 10 20:55 UTC 1999

Mark has me confused with Marcus.  Happens all the time. ;-)

response 48 of 78:

Jul 11 00:49 UTC 1999

Establishing a POP is more than just putting a POP somewhere. Unless people
know about it, they're not going to use it, which means we'd have to spend--and
spend quite a bit--on publicizing that POP.

response 50 of 78:

Jul 11 08:39 UTC 1999

If grex were a "commercial" organization, a lot of the people who have
donated time or resources would expect to get paid for it, at market
rates.  That means, in very rough terms, at *least* $50k/y/fte (salary +
benefits + office expenses such as workstations and, yes, office space.)
(Realistically, this would be more like $100k.) Something like grex
would certainly require at least 2 fte's, but realistically, this is
more like 5.  Some of the 5 could be el cheapo summer interns and the
like, of course.  Compared to this, hardware expenses for grex proper
wouldn't be so great, except it would be harder to not justify getting
new faster stuff each year.  Say, another $10K/yr.  So, as a "starving"
startup, you're looking at $110K/yr (and the stock option plan better be
damn good).  More realistically, you're looking at $500K+.  This means a
membership base of 10x to 40x the size of the current grex base.  That
in turn basically means a large metropolitan area such as new york city,
SF, etc.

When you look at the economics, it's pretty easy to see why the well and
arbornet, started by the same people with the same goal ("make money")
went in such different directions.

response 52 of 78:

Jul 12 23:23 UTC 1999

the grex store should get set up to take credit card purchases, so it 
can take orders directly over the 'net.  Then it could sell a lot more 
t-shirts and get into other things like coffee mugs (werent grex coffee 
mugs sold in the past?)

response 54 of 78:

Jul 13 14:22 UTC 1999

Dialin access is only going the way of the mastadon because large numbers of
people use systems they _can't_ dial in to.  Dialling in to Grex is much more
convenient that telnetting if you happen to be local (no wait, less lag,
etc.)  

I agree that grex doesn't need any more A2 dialin lines, since the existing
ones are never busy.  Dialin lines in other area codes sounds like an
interesting experiment.  

response 56 of 78:

Jul 13 18:06 UTC 1999

        Allright, I'll concede to the objection over my use of the term
"commercial" - there, outside of t-shirts and mugs and the like, is no strict
relationship between the services offered and the funds donated.

        As a financial entity, though, it's my understanding that GREX survives
largely in part due to the contributions of a handfull of core folks, most
of whom have been here since the system's inception.  My point was that in
order to make a sister system work, we'd require a likewise skilled group of
people willing to donate a great deal of time and money over the years, or
the sister system would not be viable.

response 58 of 78:

Jul 13 19:25 UTC 1999

Jazz in resp:56 :: "As a financial entity, though, it's my understanding 
that GREX survives largely due to the contributions of a handfull of 
core folks, most of whom have been here since the system's inception."
This sounds like the "Grex runs on a few deep pockets" theory which 
I feel like I have to keep beating down.   resp:0 lists 91 
current members, and 91 x $60 per year  yields $5460, which is most 
of Grex's operating budget.  The auction generated over $1500 
this year which should cover the shortfall.

response 60 of 78:

Jul 13 21:23 UTC 1999

Web based access doesn't allow me to see my email.  I have a hard time when
I'm out of town keeping up with my email.  A couple weeks ago I resorted to
Kinkos, and paid them $3 to telnet over to Grex.  

response 62 of 78:

Jul 13 22:35 UTC 1999

I'm local and I very very infrequently telnet in or use Backtalk.
I dial in.  I find Backtalk cumbersome compared to a command line
interface.  Please (whomever) don't assume everyone is just like
you.

response 64 of 78:

Jul 14 02:07 UTC 1999

Richard's warning in #61 is one we should keep in mind, I think.  But there's
no harm in talking about things.

I think helping to start another system like Grex would be a lot like having 
children.  You might say, why have children, when they won't be as capable as 
us adults?  Well, I guess it's a biological imperative.

I think we have a pretty good thing going, and I'd like to share it with other
people in other places.  I know we already do that, but for me the fact
that Grex is in the same city I am is important to me.  I think the chances
of my getting this involved with a system that was elsewhere are near zero.

I like the fact that I can meet Grexers ftf, I guess.  That makes a big
difference.  And I like feeling that I'm close to the action.

Those are just my personal biases, but based on them I think that a system
in another city would attract people that Grex couldn't, just because of
geography.

I also take seriously our role as a protector of free speech and as a charity.
Sometimes I think that if we don't get the word out to more people that the
Internet is more than just a library, and more than just a place where you
read things, then sooner or later that role will be legislated into it by
people who are afraid of what it might become.  I'd love to see lots of Grexes
all over the world, to the point where everyone knew someone who participated
in one.  Then politicians would no more dare to shut us down than they would
the DAR.