response 5 of 91:

Dec 1 06:02 UTC 1999

Grex already has web interfaces to a bunch of stuff, including the
conferences.  In the sense of being a conferencing system and trying to draw
in a wide variety of people, the web interface is probably a good idea, but
it exists.  It does have its drawbacks.  tel and so forth don't work.  To
enable them would basically put us in competition with ICQ and AIM, and might
not be so advisable, but I wonder if not having them detracts from the sense
of community.  It certainly would have detracted from my teenage social life,
when I met a lot of cool people by sending random tels, but it may be that
Grex is big enough at this point that random tels aren't aren't appreciated
by those logged in either.

There's another important point to consider here, which is that despite what
you read in the newspapers, not everything on the Internet is web based.  In
particular, well designed administrative interfaces for servers, routers, and
the like, generally tend to be command line based, either running Unix or some
similar interface.  There are a lot of us around here, or formally around
here, who got into that sort of computer networking stuff by poking around
on Grex, learned an incredible amount here, and then turned that knowledge
into computer or networking carreers.  Perhaps that's just generally less
likely to happen at this point, if we buy the argument that the kids are all
using web interfaces anyway, but that sort of learning certainly isn't going
to happen if the computer system is hidden behind a web interface.  Since I
regard that sort of learning experience as an important part of what Grex is,
it's certainly a feature I would hate to lose.

response 7 of 91:

Dec 1 15:52 UTC 1999

        I think, what you are missing folks is this: systems like Grex and
        Mnut are still esstentially a "local community", and that - not
        just 'bbs' or even 'party', and certainly not 'talk'.

        The users, by and large, are folks you have met; or friends of
        friends; or you have survived a long & sometimes tedious
        "apprenticeship" in etiquette (sic?) - resulting in a person that
        isn't immediately despicable, (or if they are, the cliques vary).

        The amount of use - and that "use" is a big argument - seems
        directly proportional to the user-'locale', and even the 'locale'
        adjusts some: as folks move.. 

        Beyond the idea of "FOG" - related to policies.. "FOG" should also
        be concerned with hardware and software issues. Failure to review
        and even update all three issues will ultimately mean the stagnant
        death of grex at some point. It would mean the death of _any_
        organism, even a "nice" organism.. Even a "nice" organism with a
        LOT of "supporting & beneficial parasites - or symbiots".

        BackTalk, neat though it is, is a single evolutionary step.. Not
        for the world, mind you.. just for this organism. (btw, since the
        advent of BT, have donations or memberships changed markedly?)
        

response 9 of 91:

Dec 1 15:58 UTC 1999

One thing the web is very good for is hopping from one service to another very
quickly.  We could use that to our advantage if we gave people more reason
to hop to grex: imagine, for instance, if the cooking conference posted a
recipe archive on the web with a link that says "for discussion of recipes,
click here" - that could well bring in some extra users.

The disadvantage of trying to attract users over the web is that, since you
can hop from one service to another easily, the web fosters a short attention
span.  I, and most people I know, have no "brand loyalty" when it comes to
web-based services.  I know there was a lot of discussion on this one when
Backtalk was first being installed - did anyone ever collect any data on
whether web users are more likely or less likely to stick around?

If mere growth is the idea, then yeah, the web is probably a great way to go.
But my impression is that most grexers would rather see one new user who
sticks around, posts in the conferences, and becomes a member, than ten new
users who wander in over the web and lose interest.

Of course, this may well change as the web becomes less of a novelty - the
short attention span bit, I mean.  Already, people probably have more of an
attention span on the web than they once did.

response 11 of 91:

Dec 1 16:05 UTC 1999

        Yeah, "attention span" is a really valid point with "newbies", 
        and I include my own folks in that group.

response 13 of 91:

Dec 1 18:28 UTC 1999

        I'm not sure "Grex modems" is much of an issue, or even "an
        issue". As long as someone wants to pay for them <shrug>
        downshifting isn't a problem.

response 15 of 91:

Dec 1 19:00 UTC 1999

        Yah.. If it worked out that:
        "we will be eliminating all dialins that are not affordable."

        Then, I suspect not only a hue & cry they could hear in Seattle,
        but also some "agressive posturing" - and then some set of folks
        would "rescue" the dialins with direct-donations (which are ALWAYS
        viable anyway).

        However, financially, Grex always seems to float just fine.. SOO,
        the issues are other than the "connectivity" for now.

        It would help, I suppose, if we had an idea of the users, app,
        "clock-cycles" (or whatever) they require, and the bandwidth.
        Typically, Grex is fairly "sprightly" to me.. Until verio.net acts
        up - and that's becoming a frequent event. Given what we have and
        how it uses system & bandwidth, perhaps it would yield a basis to
        work from or on.

response 17 of 91:

Dec 1 20:04 UTC 1999

        Umm.. I got twisted up there..

        Is grex a "local bbs", a "community with a web-presence" or an
        electronic form of "social services"?

response 19 of 91:

Dec 1 20:09 UTC 1999

        ohhh. kay.. Maybe someone can write a nice, list-type post
        of wtf we have *now*.. Because, it's sorta' confuzzling if we
        can't at least agree on where we ARE, let alone where we might
        like to be/go..

response 21 of 91:

Dec 1 21:30 UTC 1999

I don't think having an exclusively webbed interface would attract the same
"kind" of people. Had Grex been just on the web when I found it, I wouldn't
have given it a second glance. I came here after searching through the web,
looking for a place to play nethack over a network. NH drew me in, then having
free and (mostly) unrestircted shell access piqued my interest. I lurked a
bit in bbs and party, then started talking in party and becoming active in
bbs. In contrast, I don't use any of the web-based chatrooms, IRC, or message
boards.

response 23 of 91:

Dec 1 22:18 UTC 1999

I disagree that grex shouldnt be trying to grow-- grex is about the
conferences, so look around.  With the exception of Agora and the sex
conf and here, there is very little activity.  Grex is a wasteland of
inactive or dead confs.  

The only way to change that is to attract more people, and if grex isnt
attracting more people rightnow, then logic dictates that grex itself
needs to change.

response 25 of 91:

Dec 1 23:39 UTC 1999

        And then Grex can sponsor itself by putting advertisements on those
web pages.

response 27 of 91:

Dec 2 02:43 UTC 1999

the activity in the conferences is fairly representative of the interests of
the people who use grex.  is suspect that the growth of the internet as a
whole is more responsible for the decline in the variety of the conference
activity than anything about grex itself.  people have found other, larger
and more diverse communities of choice in which to pursue those interests.
what should (or can) we do about that?  i don't think there is anything to
be done about it.  we're not the only game in town the way we perhaps were
once. ('we' meaning confer, grex and m-net.)  

under such conditions, a shakeout would be natural, and the remaining users
of grex will be drawn to what it offers that they don't feel they can get more
easily or better elsewhere.  many of us who continue to ue the conferences
on grex do so because of a sense of comfort with the people with whom we're
interacting, and perhaps the stability and even predictability of the
participation.  i think we feel that if we start a discussion here, we can
do so with some confidence that there is a group of people who will respond
straightforwardly and without swamping us with junkmail for our efforts.

we're not hiding, although the expectations we have and the comments they
engender may give us the look and feel of a closed system to those who poke
their heads in and don't stay to really look around.

there is a good solid reason why grex was once called "galactically boring"
and why many of us appreciate (though with some humour) that label.

<blather, blather...>