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Grex > Coop11 > #198: Limit the number of brandnew posts per user per 24hrs in Agora? | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 157 responses total. |
ea
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response 37 of 157:
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Sep 7 20:08 UTC 2000 |
Maybe the solution here would be, rather than restrictions on Agora,
placing more text in conspicious locations that newusers can see very
easily. Stuff like "Did you know that you can set a 'twit' filter on
posters you don't like? Just do this ...." Or "If you don't like
seeing so many items on the item list, you can forget items. Forgetting
it causes it to not appear on the item list, but you can still read it
if you want to. ALl you have to do is ..." (I'd fill in the how to do
this, but I'm on backtalk and there's a nice convinient "forget" button)
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richard
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response 38 of 157:
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Sep 7 20:28 UTC 2000 |
by my own rough count willard currentlyhas 128 items, jp2 has 60, and
chamberl has something like 40.
which means 42% of summer agora's items were entered by three users! and
willard's percentages have been going up, of the last 100 items entered
he has 60% why? because far fewer people have been entering items towards
the end of this agora, because far fewer have been reading it. Agora
has been badly hurt by this behaviour...and what's the reaction? oh la
de da, lets do nothing! better yet, lets rename it the willard conf,
becuase he's being allowed to take it over.
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eeyore
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response 39 of 157:
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Sep 7 20:54 UTC 2000 |
No, I'd rather not have Agora become the Willard Conf. *BUT* Like Mary, I
really think the whining about him is worse than the items he puts in. part
of it might be because I'm losing a lot of respect for a lot of people that
I used to think were adults.
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jep
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response 40 of 157:
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Sep 7 22:25 UTC 2000 |
Please note that most M-Net users haven't done anything bad to Grex at
all. If this is going to be treated as some kind of feud, a lot of
people who have nothing to do with it are going to be sucked into it.
I'm more an M-Net user than a Grex user, much though it pains me to
write it these days. I've never vandalized any computer system.
Also please note that md has been doing the same thing to M-Net's
general conference that willard has been doing to Grex's Agora. I find
it even less admirable that a 40-something man, who has been a
remarkably intelligent poster for years, and whom I've admired greatly,
is turning into a 5 year old, than than a 20 year old with this kind of
history is behaving that way.
In both cases, I've ignored it as best I could. Young children looking
for attention will do whatever works for them in their efforts to get
it. The more you react, the more attention you're giving to them.
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willard
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response 41 of 157:
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Sep 8 00:01 UTC 2000 |
#40: Suck my balls.
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davel
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response 42 of 157:
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Sep 8 00:54 UTC 2000 |
Hmm. I gave up on agora a few years back when the ratio of items to items
of interest (to me) got too high (for me). I guess I'm not entirely sanguine
about saying that this problem will go away by itself, but even less so about
any solutions working.
(And does anyone else find it ironic that Richard is the one posting a
suggestion such as this?)
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swa
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response 43 of 157:
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Sep 8 01:42 UTC 2000 |
Hmm... I'm still puzzled by the idea that agora is normally easy to figure
out and accessible to newusers. Generally, by this point in the season (2
weeks or so before restart), agora has something like 200 items. Yes, I
realize that 200 is less than 540, or whatever we are up to these days,
but 200 is still too many for *me* to sift my way through, and I've been
familiar with conferencing and with Grex for a long time.
I find myself agreeing with eeyore in #31 and #39 and mary in #36. The
people who are whining about willard are irritating me a lot more than
willard is. I mentioned this several months back, when richard was the
one people had decided to whine about. Dealing with someone who you find
irritating and immature by being irritating and immature back is not only
ineffective but hypocritical.
I don't know about newusers, but here's what *I've* learned from agora
recently:
1) Real Grexers do not like m-netters. M-netters are bad and
juvenile and disruptive. 'Sides, m-netters have the gall to admit, on
occasion, their dislike of Real Grexers, and we won't stand for that here.
Both Real Grexers and m-netters can demonstrate an amazing display of "our
bbs is cooler than your bbs, nyah nyah nyah!" sort of behavior.
2) Real Grexers do not like iggy. She finds humorous things which other
people find important or serious. She also can make fun of people and/or
be insensitive -- things which Real Grexers never do. This is seen as the
worst sort of betrayal since iggy used to be cool around here -- was once
seen as a Real Grexer herself but has now gone over to the side of the bad,
immature people who We Don't Like Around Here.
3) Real Grexers will, upon reflection, concede that *some* m-netters are
okay, especially now that they've had the good taste to go back where they
came from. But Real Grexers do not like willard. No, willard is bad and
juvenile and egotistical. He is unwilling to listen to others and is a
Bad Influence on our little wholesome community here.
4) New users -- those bright, impressionable minds which we hope to form
into Real Grexers one day -- need to be protected from the behavior
described in 1-3 at all costs.
I've been involved with Grex off and on for over six years now. I'm more
silent in conferences than most -- I read a lot of items but, online as in
real life, tend to listen more than I talk, I guess -- but I've donated
both money and time to it because I *care* about Grex. Because I love
what Grex is, what it has been. I admire Grex's unwillingness to
compromise on free speech issues (and yes, I do regard the idea of
limiting postings as an unprecedented breach of this policy). I loved
that, when I first joined Grex as a high school junior, I found people
here of all ages and backgrounds who were eager to discuss everything from
current events to philosophical abstractions with me, who took me
seriously, who took the time to explain how things worked to a clueless
computer-illiterate, who listened to my ideas and didn't just dismiss me
as some dumb kid. I love the diversity among Grexers, the different
voices that different people bring to the discussions here.
But lately I see a lot of what I love about Grex eroding, and I think that
the bulk of the damage is coming from within rather than without: from
longtime Grexers who are beginning to see freedom of speech as not worth
fighting for if it means that we have to put up with unpopular or
unpleasant ideas; who see ignorant young newbies as those annoying people
who enter items saying "help quit quit :q" rather than as potentially
interesting individuals with ideas of their own; who find diversity
annoying and uncomfortable and seem only interested in talking with
people who, if they have the gall to disagree with the acceptable way of
thinking and of communicating, at least do so in a quiet,
non-objectionable manner.
I think Grex still has the potential to be the welcoming, friendly, quirky
community I remember from 1994. But I'm not sure that people are as
willing to be a part of that community as they are willing to bitch and
nag and nitpick. (If, as richard alleges, willard is "allowed" to take
over agora... are we allowing him by not forcibly restricting him, or are
we allowing him because the rest of us are more interested in whining than
in entering thought-provoking items of our own, and trying to steer
discussions in a meaningful direction?)
What *I'm* most concerned with new users knowing is that people who make
statements like, "well, we don't like (fill in the blank with behavior of
your choice here) around here" do not speak for everyone here. Me, I'm
not terribly interested in being a Real Grexer. So I guess you'll have to
count me in among the nonconformist, wrong-thinking people that are
corrupting Grex As We Know It. If only Real Grexers are welcome
around here, then I guess I'd better start packing my bags, hmm?
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robh
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response 44 of 157:
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Sep 8 01:42 UTC 2000 |
Hey, I gave up on Agora in 1996. I guess I was ahead of the times. >8)
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robh
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response 45 of 157:
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Sep 8 01:43 UTC 2000 |
(#43 slipped in ahead of mine - not that it matters that much...)
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md
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response 46 of 157:
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Sep 8 02:13 UTC 2000 |
Re #40, jep, I am not doing the same thing to M-Net's general
conference that willard has been doing to Grex's Agora. Not even
close. Anybody can do what willard does.
But thank you for calling me 40-something. I am, in fact, only three
months younger than John Remmers.
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willard
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response 47 of 157:
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Sep 8 02:17 UTC 2000 |
I love you guys. *passes around a bowl of granola*
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russ
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response 48 of 157:
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Sep 8 04:18 UTC 2000 |
Possible fixes for the twit problem:
1.) Ban the IP numbers of the offenders at Grex's router.
2.) Drop phone calls from offending phone numbers at the modems.
3.) Default twit filter for newusers (don't have to worry
about turning it on).
4.) Auto-kill daemon for brandnew items matching twit criteria.
(or link to m-net followed by kill).
5.) Restraining order against willard, twinkie, iggy et alii.
(Works well to reinforce #1 and #2.)
Whenever somebody gets around to fixing the PicoSpan help files
so that you can finally find out what the different % escapes
actually mean, I'll finish my auto-forget twit-item filter.
(It's too damn much work to figure it out by hand, that stuff
used to have reasonable pointers to it and it oughtta be fixed.)
I think it's high time to layer a Slashdot-style moderation system
on top of PicoSpan. Shouldn't be too hard, just have to keep track
of userID's for default scores and conf/item/response arrays for
item/response scores. This would go nicely into a pager for
post-processing, and require nothing of PicoSpan.
"32 twits below your current threshold."
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gelinas
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response 49 of 157:
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Sep 8 04:24 UTC 2000 |
Do the "offenders" use the same IP address every time? I don't.
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slynne
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response 50 of 157:
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Sep 8 05:34 UTC 2000 |
I would be all for #48 if it would filter russ and prevent him from using
grex.
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scg
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response 51 of 157:
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Sep 8 05:47 UTC 2000 |
I think I can count as one of the people who is finding the complaining worse
than what is being complained about at this point, but I'm not sure. I'm
certainly kindof mystified by the list that seems to be going around of people
who should be objected to. For the most part, I don't understand the
objections. Iggy, for example, has certainly been saying things that are
somewhat different than some of the other stuff I've been reading on Grex for
years, but Grex would be awfully boring if it never changed. Others who have
expressed the view that the "M-Net Invasion" wasn't so bad also seem to have
been added to the list of evil people, whithout having participated in much
if any of the supposedly evil behavior themselves. I woudln't mind seeing
the criticism of those people stop, since if nothing else it feels like
beating a dead horse at this point, but I'm not sure I want to spend a lot
of time complaining about the complaining either.
I have far more mixed feelings about users who go through entering countless
nothing items. I find it annoying. We do seem to be down to only one user
doing it, though, since as predicted the other one has gotten bored and gone
away. I have to admit that I'm not sure what the motivation behind those
items was and is. I suspect it's an experiment to see how we'll react, and
I don't think that makes it any less annoying. Still, it's worth nothing that
both willard and jp2 do seem to be extremely smart people, who in addition
to their prolific item entering have also made some real contributions to
discussions of the sort that I do enjoy. While I wouldn't mind seeing them
enter fewer of the items I don't like, I think it would be a real loss for
Grex to chase either of them away.
And, as several others here have said, there's the free speech issue. I know
what kind of speech annoys or offends me, but what I say may annoy or offend
somebody else. While I think most people are reasonably good at figuring out
social rules and not sayhing or doing things that are going to offend too many
people, unless that's their goal or their goal makes it unavoidable, heavy
handed enforcement of those social rules is a far less pleasant prospect.
In this case, richard is calling for silencing those whose conferencing style
he doesn't like. In turn, others have for years been advocating silencing
Richard. Meanwhile, other people here are annoyed by those who call for
silencing Richard. All of that makes for good debate, but I don't think any
of the people involved could be forcibly silenced without creating a slippery
slope where the next person people decide they don't like would be silenced
too.
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carson
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response 52 of 157:
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Sep 8 09:55 UTC 2000 |
(I find myself in agreement with eeyore, mary, and swa, who have all
expressed my opinion on the matter better that I could.)
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willard
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response 53 of 157:
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Sep 8 12:08 UTC 2000 |
I find it offensive that you people are interpreting my activity as
'willard being a {vandal,nuisance,asshole,sociopath}'. You might not
agree with what I say, how much I have to say, and how frequently I
say it. That's fine. But cast me aside, and you become the first to
renounce Grex's long-standing tradition of freedom of expression.
Up until chamberl 'skipped town', he was entering just as many items
as I was. He always has, and if he was still here, he still would be.
Now that he's gone, I wish he was back. I'm sure a lot of people do.
If you people are serious about extinguishing this flame, more power
to you. You don't have to block my IP address, close my account, or
hack PicoSpan to restrict activity. Just tell me to go, and I will
leave. But never forget the precedent you've set.
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md
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response 54 of 157:
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Sep 8 12:31 UTC 2000 |
(Do you think he's actually starting to believe that stuff?)
Willard, you're scaring us.
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scott
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response 55 of 157:
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Sep 8 12:53 UTC 2000 |
Granted there's a lot of ill will toward willard and some others.
A lot of that ill will they brought with them, so it's no surprised it's
bounced back on them.
Still, I'd rather be on an open system even if it means having to put up with
a few twits.
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ric
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response 56 of 157:
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Sep 8 13:14 UTC 2000 |
(This item REEKS of communisn)
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willard
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response 57 of 157:
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Sep 8 14:02 UTC 2000 |
Hahaha. :)
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birdy
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response 58 of 157:
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Sep 8 14:14 UTC 2000 |
I'm in agreement with Mary and Meg. Sure, it can be a pain to use
forget 800 times a day, but it's still there for your use. Same with
the twit filter. And nowrite/yeswrite. And !mesg n -pt. Etc etc
etc. There are many ways to ignore people on Grex if you don't mind
doing a little work on YOUR end of it.
Restricting what people say is stupid, hence our free speech policy.
Blocking IP addies because you don't like a person is downright
ridiculous. Even on my worst low blood sugar days I'm not that
evil. ;-)
And, Richard, if you're so irritated with Agora that you can't bear to
type forget one more time, just take it off your hot list.
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gull
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response 59 of 157:
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Sep 8 14:51 UTC 2000 |
If Grex starts sitebanning people just for entering too many items, I think
I'd probably leave. Site banning an IP or range of IPs should be an extreme
last resort, if for no other reason than that it tends to hurt innocent
parties as well.
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jep
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response 60 of 157:
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Sep 8 17:45 UTC 2000 |
re #53: From whom would you accept being told to leave?
re #46: You haven't spent as much time and effort on it as willard has,
but you have entered dozens of items using the same format, and with
similar apparent intent (annoying people into not using the conference
you're vandalizing). It's easier to forget items from the WWW interface
on M-Net than it is here, because M-Net is a lot faster. That's why
you're less annoying. But your retaliatory behavior is as childish as
willard's behavior. I haven't noticed any significant differences.
I've admired you for years for your expression and creativity, more than
I have all but a very few people on-line. Oh, well. Life goes on.
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jep
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response 61 of 157:
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Sep 8 17:53 UTC 2000 |
I am very much against blocking IP addresses or anything else like that.
We're open. There have always been some people who can't resist a cheap
opportunity to try to ruin things for others, due to their own
inadequacies. That's just one of the risks of being open.
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