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Grex > Coop11 > #10: Grex Granted Tax-Exempt Status |  |
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| 25 new of 127 responses total. |
aruba
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response 36 of 127:
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Jul 20 18:07 UTC 1998 |
Re #32: Aaron, you certainly have a right to say what you think and to try to
influence Grex policy. But I happen to think what we're doing with Grex now
is a fine use of our status, and the IRS agrees. In fact Jan was *extremely*
careful not to embellish on what we do in the application, and the IRS
approved it quite quickly. I take that to mean we are well within the
boundaries of what they see as worthy of exemption.
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rcurl
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response 37 of 127:
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Jul 20 18:13 UTC 1998 |
The government (i.e., us) support non-profits with tax exemption if they
provide some service that *otherwise* the government might be asked to
or have to provide. Non-profits are the way our government reduces its own
size. I thought Aaron normally approved of smaller government.
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aaron
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response 38 of 127:
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Jul 20 22:55 UTC 1998 |
re #34: Read what I said, Misti. You took a subsidy, and now you get to live
with my opinion. You have two choices -- learn to live with it, or
give up the subsidy.
re #36: I don't much care what was in the application. If somebody hands you
the brass ring, and your response is, "Yawn".... don't expect me
to be impressed.
re #37: Are you asserting that Grex was granted its exemption on the basis
that it alleviates the burden on government -- one of several
categories of 501(C)(3) organizations? Possible, but very unlikely.
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aaron
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response 39 of 127:
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Jul 20 23:01 UTC 1998 |
Incidentally, unless you were granted an express effective date retroactive
to the date of the letter, it would normally follow that only those
donations made after July 13, 1998 would be deductable.
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mta
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response 40 of 127:
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Jul 20 23:58 UTC 1998 |
Actually I also have the option of ignoring your opinion. ;)
It is my opinion, and apaprently the IRS agrees, that Grex is doing a good job
of providing a service that benefits this country in its own small way by
providing access to the information "superhighway", albeit in a slow, clunky
bus, that would otherwise be unavailable to a lot of the poorer users we serve.
The better informed our populace is, the better off our country is. Granted,
Grex isn't quite on par with a US Government class, or a programming class, or
a journalism class -- but all these subjects and more are discussed here --
often in a manner far more amusing than the average class would be. If we can
capture the imagination of the occasional young person and tun them to an
interest they would not otherwise have discovered, if we can provide that one
piece of information that a citizen needs to determine who to vote for, if we
can provide a place where someone can develop a skill that makes them more
employable, if we can help a young person to develop a little more social grace
than )s)he otherwise would have, we're providing a service that makes our world
a little better.
OK, we're not talking about Nobel peace prize quality stuff here -- but every
journey requires that first step. Maybe some day a Grexer will earn a NPP
based in part on an interest developed here. Maybe not. Maybe a kid from a
poor family will wander on to Grex from the local library, create an account,
get fascinated by computers and go on to develop web pages for a living instead
of dropping out of school and stealing cars or selling drugs. Maybe not.
Maybe two people from opposite parts of the world will meet here on Grex, fall
in love, marry, and give birth to the next Albert Einstein or Mohatma Ghandi.
Maybe not.
The fact is, we are providing a service free of charge to all comers. Like
most things, the value of this service depends a lot on what you put into it.
But we are making the opportunities available which is no less than the public
schools are doing. We don't pour information into the heads of our users --
but truth be told, the school systems can't do that without a lot of
cooperation from their users either.
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steve
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response 41 of 127:
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Jul 21 00:58 UTC 1998 |
Jan and Mark: I am blown away by this. It makes one hell of a
neat birthday present!
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aaron
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response 42 of 127:
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Jul 21 01:32 UTC 1998 |
re #40: Ignoring my opinion is one way of living with it, albeit not the
most constructive way.
If you can now explain how party is an educational resource, I
will have to conclude that you are eminently qualified for the
M-Net board.
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steve
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response 43 of 127:
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Jul 21 02:25 UTC 1998 |
It isn't, and I don't think anyone would try to make the
assertion that it is.
However, jsut as school's have things like play areas, so
can Grex.
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robh
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response 44 of 127:
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Jul 21 02:53 UTC 1998 |
Re 42 - OK, I'll bite. What would you consider more constructive
than ignoring you?
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bru
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response 45 of 127:
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Jul 21 04:09 UTC 1998 |
I trie warn you,
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scg
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response 46 of 127:
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Jul 21 04:14 UTC 1998 |
So, so far our bit 501(c)3 drawback is that Aaron disapproves. As long as
M-Net comes back up soon, that shouldn't be a big problem. ;)
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other
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response 47 of 127:
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Jul 21 04:43 UTC 1998 |
if it doesn't, i propose we take up a collection to pay marcus to do grex the
service of resurrecting mnet. or steve. whoever is the most willing and able
to handle the security stuff necessary for the job.
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rcurl
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response 48 of 127:
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Jul 21 05:07 UTC 1998 |
Re #38 re #37: yes, the government granted Grex tax-exempt status because
Grex lessens the burden on government. That is only reason that it is done.
Of course, not everyone needs or wants the particular easing of burden
involved, but *some* do, so the net effect of creating many 501(c)3 tax
exempt organizations is a wide sprectrum of services provided by the
private (non-profit) sector, based on local needs, that alleviate a burden
on government.
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janc
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response 49 of 127:
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Jul 21 18:23 UTC 1998 |
Aaron: If the IRS recognized our status in a non-retroactive way it would
*never* be as of the date of their letter of recognition. It would be as of
the date when the application was postmarked, or, if there wasn't a
recognizable postmark, as of the date that it was received by the IRS office.
As it happens, there is a whole page of the application form that is all about
determining when the status starts. You check the one that you think applies
to you. The last one on the list is for non-retroactive status, as described
in the previous paragraph. We didn't check that one. What I checked was the
second-to-last one, the "good faith" exception to the normal filing time
limits, which I felt we qualified for. This does give retroactive status.
Apparantly the IRS thought so to, since they accepted the application as
filed, without amendments.
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rcurl
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response 50 of 127:
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Jul 21 18:52 UTC 1998 |
I meant to remark that you did an exceptionally good job in filling out
the application, since it is "usual" for the application to be returned
for more information (the IRS has *forms* asking for that more information,
indicating how commonly it occurs).
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janc
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response 51 of 127:
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Jul 21 19:06 UTC 1998 |
I have no ambitions for Cyberspace Communications to do anything better that
what it is already doing - which I consider pretty darn good. If I thought
that tax-exempt status would force us to do anything different than we are
doing now, then I wouldn't have applied for it. If you look at our
application (I forget the URL, but if you follow the "governance" link on
our home page, you'll find it), you'll see that it includes mention of party,
and explicitly says that a lot of the usage of the system is social rather
than educational in nature. I think there is no question that such activity
is fine with the IRS. If it wasn't we'd ditch the tax-exempt status, not
party.
It may well be that there are better things that Grex could and should be
doing. I'd like to hear what kinds of things you have in mind. Not having
heard your ideas, I certainly don't disagree with them. All I disagree with
is that we must do these unspecified things *because* of the tax-exempt
status. The only things we have to do *because* of the tax-exempt status are
to issue proper receipts and returns, and continue doing what we said we
were doing in our application (or inform the IRS if we change).
Lots of Arbornet people have been telling us that we should get tax-exempt
status. Anywhere else in the world, this advice would be considered insane.
We are engaged in the kind of service that our government, in its infinite
wisdom, has chosen to consider tax-exempt. Why shouldn't we ask them to
recognize that status?
Only because of Arbornet. For reasons unique to Arbornet (including some
good reasons), tax-exempt status has become a club that people use to hit each
other over the head with for years now. The concern has always be that, if
Grex gets tax-exempt status, then people who have a stake in that fight on
Arbornet would feel they have to carry it over to Grex, so people can't say,
"well, Grex has 501(c)3 and they don't worry about any of this." The last
thing that we want is to be drawn into the biggest mud fight in M-Net
history. Aaron, when you declare that we have to make (unspecified) changes
because we have tax-exempt status, you are setting off lots of alarms in
lots of people's heads. I have to response that I reject *any* suggestion
that our policies should be dictated by our 501(c)(3) status. That status
is something that the government gives us in recognition of what we are
doing. We'll happily take it, and use it to encourage donations to the
system, but we will not be steered by it. We will be steered by the
mission set forth in our articles of incorporation, and by the will of
our users. We are committed to an ideal, not to tax-exempt status.
I have no idea if Arbornet's tax-exempt status is in order or not. I don't
think Grex's tax-exempt status is relevant to that issue. Grex is a different
organization, with different articles of incorporation, different bylaws,
and different ways of raising money. It's application for tax-exempt status
was done on a different basis.
Anyway, if you'd like to see changes in Grex's mission, I'd be interested in
hearing what you have in mind, and why you think they would be more suitably
performed by us than by some new organization specifically chartered to do
that (e.g., it might be something that has good synergy with what we already
do). I just cannot agree that we should change what we are doing simply
*because* the IRS decided that what we are doing is tax-exempt. That's just
weird.
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rcurl
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response 52 of 127:
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Jul 21 19:13 UTC 1998 |
I agree completely with Jan. I've said before that 501(c)3 status is
both beneficial and benign, though one has one more piece of paper to
fill out each year. I find all the gnashing of teeth about it incomprehensible
and can only conclude that those that find themselves doing that don't
understand what it is or what it requires. In particular, I am just puzzled
over the turmoil at Arbornet. There are tens of thousands of non-profits
that benefit from tax exemption and get along just fine with it, and then
there is one that creates sound anf fury about it: incomprehensible.
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keesan
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response 53 of 127:
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Jul 21 19:41 UTC 1998 |
Re #40 (Misti). Among other things, grex is doing a fine job of putting
people in touch with each other. It also put Tim Ryan in touch with us at
Kiwanis, resulting in several donated 386s which will be sold and the money
used to support local non-profit groups performing services that the
government would probably have done more expensively and inefficiently (since
it would not have had volunteer labor). It put me in touch with a Bosnian
refugee in need of a translation (thanks Larry). It got Kent Nassen in
helping with computers at Kiwanis, and Richard Pirie with software. It got
us a bit of recycled lumber that might have gone to the dump otherwise. We
traded or acquired otehr computer equipment (omni, and a classifieds ad).
It found a grand piano in need of tuning for a friend in need of practice.
The computer aspect of grex is only one aspect, for many of us the chance to
communicate and meet other people is primary.
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bru
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response 54 of 127:
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Jul 22 16:00 UTC 1998 |
You don't understand. aaron is just getting started.
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mta
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response 55 of 127:
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Jul 22 17:00 UTC 1998 |
Thank you, Jan for making the points I kept skipping around. ;)
You're absolutely right, Sindi. I think we'd have to do extensive interviewing
of many, many Grexers to make a comprehensive list of all the good a system
like this does every day. ;)
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keesan
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response 56 of 127:
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Jul 22 17:21 UTC 1998 |
Want to start an item asking 'What has grex done for you?"
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mta
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response 57 of 127:
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Jul 22 18:31 UTC 1998 |
That's an interesting idea... ;)
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janc
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response 58 of 127:
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Jul 22 22:40 UTC 1998 |
Re 54: You don't understand. I like Aaron and respect his opinions and
expertize. Though I always read his posting with interest, and never
dismiss anything he says out of hand, I do disagree with him on this
particular issue. Aaron is not a problem. If Aaron is the only problem
with 501(c)(3), then there is no problem.
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davel
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response 59 of 127:
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Jul 23 10:47 UTC 1998 |
This response has been erased.
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dpc
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response 60 of 127:
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Jul 23 15:00 UTC 1998 |
See! Isn't this discussion *fun*?! 8-)
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