|
Grex > Coop9 > #7: Members with more than one vote |  |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 186 responses total. |
scg
|
|
response 35 of 186:
| 
Oct 31 18:33 UTC 1996 |
Actually, we would have to take user x's word, and user x could then be held
accountable if something happened.
|
ajax
|
|
response 36 of 186:
|
Oct 31 19:16 UTC 1996 |
Richard is pointing out a problem with voting fraud, not with
security accountability.
|
chelsea
|
|
response 37 of 186:
|
Oct 31 22:14 UTC 1996 |
I think the membership here has done pretty well under
an honor system. I trust those who care enough about
Grex to become a member will do what is right and only
vote once per person.
|
e4808mc
|
|
response 38 of 186:
|
Oct 31 23:36 UTC 1996 |
The federal government requires that children have a social security number
to claim them as dependents on your tax return. If we wanted to get real
paranoid, we could require parents to furnish a copy of the kid's SS card.
But I think kerouac's fantasies are getting in the way of reality again.
Doesn't seem like anyone has identified at *voting* problem.
Doesn't seem like grex is over run with power hungry parents wanting to vote
several times either.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 39 of 186:
|
Nov 1 01:04 UTC 1996 |
Not true! My three year old nephew does not have a social security
card, and *trust me* his parents ARE going to claim him as a
dependent on their income tax returns.
And again, it is not whether something is a problem, but whether
something has the potential to be a problem. Too many times these
days people dont talk about how to prevent forest fires until there
is a forest fire raging somewhere. A problem doesnt have to exsist
for there to be acknowledgement that it could exsist and for
solutions to be considered therein.
|
e4808mc
|
|
response 40 of 186:
|
Nov 1 01:25 UTC 1996 |
kerouac, you might want to tell the IRS that their forms and instructions are
wrong.
For 1995 tax returns, it says, "Each dependent must have a social security
number (SSN) unless the dependent was born in November or December of 1995.
You must enter the SSN in column (2). If you do not enter it or if the SSN
is wrong, it will take us longer to issue any refund shown on yur return.
You may also have to pay a $50 penalty."
|
rcurl
|
|
response 41 of 186:
|
Nov 1 07:44 UTC 1996 |
More users are "defrauding" Grex by not supporting it, than are committing
vote fraud. Let's keep our problems in perspective.
|
adbarr
|
|
response 42 of 186:
|
Nov 1 11:51 UTC 1996 |
How come people born in November and December are exempt from SSN's? Seems
like the government is missing a whole lot of potential taxpayers here. I
think I will change my birth certificate so I won't be in all those databases!
|
kerouac
|
|
response 43 of 186:
|
Nov 1 19:13 UTC 1996 |
rcurl, doyou REALLY think that those who do not support grex yet
use it are "defrauding" it? that is a horrible sentiment. It is
hypocritical to say anyone is welcome to use grex but if they
dont support it they are "defrauding it". I thought grex as
a free service donated by ites members for anyone to use. At
what point does a user who does not become a member become one who is
"defrauding"grex?
rcurl if you want a members only board with no guest access, why
dont you just say that. Non-member access is allowed so it
cannot at any time be called fraudulent as long as it is done
within the set rules.
|
pfv
|
|
response 44 of 186:
|
Nov 1 23:00 UTC 1996 |
I think the "fraud" is akin to "abuse": implying, not local folks
that rely on grex, but folks that are taking the stance that grex
is (as they see mnut) a "freenet".
I certainly try to minimize my own email requirements to internal
and resumes outgoing, but alas, there is a class of "guest" that
seems to lack almost every moral you can name.
Yes, supporting grex and mnut is a "good thing", but support means
time and money - a necessity. Unlike grex, supporting mnut means
supporting Arbornet and their insane policies.
I won't even get into the other abuses both systems suffer: the
Boards of both are well aware of them and will eventually need to
review their stance concerning them.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 45 of 186:
|
Nov 2 18:49 UTC 1996 |
But grex IS a freenet essentially. Its not technically but in function
and effect, it plays the same role as the Cleveland Freenet and the
Grand Rapids Freenet and the dozens of other such boards across the
country. It doesnt have to be called the "Grex Freenet" to be what it
is, a community/user supported board that exsists to both provide free
or low cost cyber services and foster user interaction with the hope
that it will have a positive impact upon the community.
Supporting and maintaining Grex is something that the staff and
members do because they support the idea and mission of such a board. I
dont think that it is healthy for either a type of user, or type of use
of grex to be looked down upon. If you give blood to the Red Cross, you
do so because it is the right thing to do, because you WANT to do
so...and you dont reserve the right to dictate where your blood goes or
to pass judgement on who gets your blood.
Grex is not a corporation and the members arent stockholders. It is a
non-profit in which all services and money are donated. Nobody owns it
and the bylaws specifically state that if Grex closes, everything is
given to charity. It is a public service offered by members of the
commuity because it is a good thing to offer
So it is improper for any members to act overly proprietary and claim
they know what use of grex is proper and what is fraudulent. I think
the problem with M-net is that Arbornet wasnt thinking of it as a
freenet, a public service, but rather an offering of their own PRIVATE
club. When you think that way, that is when you get proprietary and the
members start thinking of themselves as a fraternity or something, and
start to look down on users who havent *joined* the fraternity.
Actually, the only "members" should be those who are serving on the
board. Everyone else should be classified as "contributors" or
"patrons"
|
mta
|
|
response 46 of 186:
|
Nov 2 20:10 UTC 1996 |
<laugh> When did the "Self Serving Statement of the Year" competition begin?
I must have missed the announcement.
Just for the record: GREX is not and never has been a freenet, and never will
be if I have my way. The reason? GREX does not recieve any government or
corporate support.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 47 of 186:
|
Nov 2 20:36 UTC 1996 |
grex is not a "freenet" but it is a "free net". And most freenets
(or many of them anyway) are user supported. The one I use in D.C.
is for instance. Not having the designation "freenet" just means that its
not officially associated with any government.
|
rcurl
|
|
response 48 of 186:
|
Nov 3 06:36 UTC 1996 |
Grex is a membership-based non-profit corporation - a very common type of
organization. kerouac's comment about "members" in #45 is nonsense.
I put "defrauding" in quotes, which always means "in some sense", not
literally. The sense here is the weak one that we *prefer* if users
support the use of Grex, but some do not honor our preference. A little
hyperbole is useful sometimes for casting a different light on things.
|
krj
|
|
response 49 of 186:
|
Nov 3 07:24 UTC 1996 |
The way I read Rane's statement: energy spent defending against
hypothetical vote fraud would be better applied towards the
very real need to widen Grex's contributor base.
Worry less about the imaginary problems and more about the real ones.
|
janc
|
|
response 50 of 186:
|
Nov 3 16:20 UTC 1996 |
"Freenet" is a copyrighted name applied only to members of a private (not
governmental) organization that recently went defunct. kerouac is right to
say Grex is not formally a freenet. I'm not sure if anyone is right now,
since the umbrella organization no longer exists.
I have no idea what "freenet" means informally, since no accepted informal
definition of the term exists. kerouac thinks Grex is informally a free net.
I think that statement (a) has almost no meaning, and (b) is misleading and
confusing. Grex is in some ways like some freenets, and in some ways
different from other freenets and in many ways unique. Who cares? What does
it prove?
|
srw
|
|
response 51 of 186:
|
Nov 4 07:05 UTC 1996 |
There is little debate about what a "Free-net" is, because the term is a
service mark of NPTN. NPTN may be bankrupt, but the term is still their
property.
Free-nets generally do not receive Government support. Some may receive
corporate support, but that is not what makes them a free-net, and it is not
necessary to be a free-net.
There is a great deal of debate (most of happens on the communet mailing list)
about what constitutes a community network. From what I have seen, Grex
definitely meets the requirements of one. Grex does have a local focus, offers
e-mail, web sites, real-time chat and time-shifted conferencing, offers
access to community information and to the web (via lynx), and has free access.
Some argue that an organization doesn't need all of those to be a community
net. That is a matter of agreeing on terms. Anyway, Grex meets all those.
Some argue that it doesn't have to be free to be a community net. I think
I accept that argument. But it doesn't matter, as Grex is free.
Grex is also in many ways quite distinct from a typical community network.
Grex's local focus is not exclusive. Most community nets are.
Grex offers lots of things most community nets don't.
Grex is just unlike the average community network.
So I think Grex is a great deal more than a community network. A free-net is
just a particular kind of community network (the NPTN kind). Grex is, in part,
a free Community network. It is also a world-wide electronic Cafe (and more).
On the other hand, HVCN would like to be a community network of the more
ordinary kind. I wouldn't claim it is yet, not until it has its own hunt
group for local users. But Grex is weak in the area of providing community
information, and in collaborating with local oraganizations, so I see a very
real opportunity for HVCN to make a contribution, even with grex around.
|
mdw
|
|
response 52 of 186:
|
Nov 4 09:51 UTC 1996 |
As originally conceived, free-nets were supposed to seek out primarly
corporate and govermental funding, and thence to provide a limited sort
of "free" internet access - generally, e-mail, gopher, & usenet, to the
public. There was little expectation that free-nets might develop their
own significant local content, or that they would need any significant
financial support from their users. Initially, free-nets provided a
fair amount of "anonymous" access. Later, due to a combination of
vandals, inept operation, too much demand, and underfunding, most have
gone to some form of tiered membership. The free-nets in michigan are
unusual in that they don't provide much telnet access. Free-nets in
most places provide that, at least to other free-net sites. "shell"
access is a rare privilege on most free-nets. Users on most free-nets
are expected to only use a menu interface. Initially, that software was
to be bought, on a rather expensive yearly basis, from NPTN.
Free-nets have definitely been evolving in a directory that makes them
look more & more like grex. However, there are still significant
differences.
|
remmers
|
|
response 53 of 186:
|
Nov 4 10:40 UTC 1996 |
I don't think that the part about "there was little expectation
that free-nets might develop their own significant local
content" is accurate. I believe that providing a forum for the
discussion of local issues was a primary part of the original
freenet concept. I know that's true of the Cleveland Freenet,
which was one of the first (if not *the* first) freenets. It
was certainly true of the Huron Valley Freenet, the local
predecessor to HVCN that never got off the ground.
I was a member of the Cleveland Freenet for a while in its
early days. They had numerous locally-oriented message bases and
were encouraging folks to volunteer as organizers and develop
more. Also, they owned the freenet software and charged only
a token fee ($1/year, I think) to other freenets for its use.
You're quite right that the concept became corrupted over time.
I remember thinking how incongruous it was that entities calling
themselves "freenets" were developing systems of tiered access
and charging fees. That may have something to do with the decline
of freenets. I hope that Grex does not make the mistake of going
down the same path.
|
kerouac
|
|
response 54 of 186:
|
Nov 4 16:55 UTC 1996 |
I will say that the reason I found out about grex was that the Library of
Congress in D.C. keeps its own national listing of what it considers "free
nets" and provides links to them. Grex is on that list, right on the same
page with theCleeveland freenet and theBuffalo freenet and the Colorado
freenet and many others. Ihave also seen grexlisted on the freenet
listings of several other places, like Michigan State's gopher, and a
freenet page offered through the University of Virginia. I know quite a
few people who have endedup on grex because of those links. They camehere
because grex was listed as a "free net" (not freenet which is copyrighted
but understood to be essentially the samething).
So if the board and members don't wish to be considered a free net then
they should get themselves removed from the links of those pages. It is
false advertising toclaim tobe something that you are not. But if you
guys DO want to be based on the freenet concept, keepin mind what you have
to do to remain that way (no tiered memberships, no restrictions that mean
that thebasic product that grex offers isnt open to everyone)
|
ajax
|
|
response 55 of 186:
|
Nov 4 17:41 UTC 1996 |
> It is false advertising toclaim tobe something that you are not.
Who claimed this? Grex didn't create those lists, other people did.
And if it's a list of "free nets," the term is meaningless anyway,
so you can't say whether we are or are not one. If a list calls us
"Freenet (TM)", that's the error of the list maintainers, but I see
no obligation to seek them out for correction. If you want to, go
ahead.
> But if you guys DO want to be based on the freenet concept, keepin
> mind what you have to do to remain that way (no tiered
> memberships, no restrictions that mean that thebasic product that
> grex offers isnt open to everyone)
The "Freenet (TM)" concept *does* allow for tiered memberships, and
restrictions on basic services. If you meant the "free net" concept,
there is no authoritative definition to which we must conform. In
any case, Grex won't change its policies to conform to labels attached
to it by people who have never even used Grex.
|
srw
|
|
response 56 of 186:
|
Nov 4 17:41 UTC 1996 |
There was a time when NPTN was actively policing the use of the term
Free-net (their service mark). I don't know if they still are, given
that they are flat out of money. It is one of their few remaining assets
that could be sold to pay off creditors. They should.
The L of C should be told that the category is Community Networks,
because a list of free-nets should be restricted to those who have paid
for the right (membership in NPTN) to be called one. grex is not going
to ask to have itself removed from that list, as it is a mislabeled list
of community networks. Fix the label, Richard -- don't screw up the
content.
--
Local content has always been at least one of the goals of Free-Nets.
The Cleveland Free-net and its successor, the Youngstown free-net are
two early ones that had local content. The software they ran was written
for the CFN and called "FreePort". It was a menu system that severely
restricted ones access to the net. You could only go to places you could
find by gopher, at least for a long time. It was about the time that
grex got its net connection and subsequently got itself listed on the
MSU gopher page.
This page, like the L of C, called the systems that it pointed to
"Free-nets", even though they were not all affiliated with NPTN. If the
term "Free-Net" were ever made freely usable, I am sure it would come to
mean community networks which offer free access, and Grex would
certainly be one of those.
|
srw
|
|
response 57 of 186:
|
Nov 4 17:42 UTC 1996 |
Ajax slipped in and said stuff I agree with.
|
janc
|
|
response 58 of 186:
|
Nov 4 17:48 UTC 1996 |
Let's follow the reasoning here: Kerouac thought Grex was a freenet because
he saw it mentioned with some other freenets. Kerouac cannot possibly be
wrong about anything, so Grex should admit to being a freenet. Unfortunately,
if Grex admitted to being a freenet then we would be in violation of the law,
because that name is a trademark or the NPTN and Grex is not a member of that
organization. Kerouac is grudging willing to concede that Grex might not want
to violate the law just so Kerouac's personal sense of infalliability can be
maintained, but if Grex won't do that, then at least Grex has to accept direct
responsiblity for allowing Kerouac to be wrong about something. After all, if
Kerouac were by some miracle wrong about something, then it could not possibly
be his fault. Grex should thus vindicate Kerouac by setting out on a world-
wide campaign to make sure that Grex is plainly marked as "not a free-net" on
every web page that mentions it. While it's true that spending our time in
such a way would confer no benefits of any kind on Grex or its users and would
fulfill no legal obligation on our part, it would at least assuage Kerouac's
embarassment over being wrong, and is thus a worthy use of our time.
I hereby offer in the name of Grex, CCI, it's members, users, board and staff
our official and formal apologies to Kerouac for allowing a state to exist
in the universe which was the direct cause of his normally flawless
perceptions of reality to be fleetingly disrupted. We promises we will never
ever do it again.
Can we now get back to talking about something that matters to Grex, like
whether or not multiple votes should be allowed in Grex elections?
|
kerouac
|
|
response 59 of 186:
|
Nov 4 18:02 UTC 1996 |
Sheesh, allI was saying is that many people have come here over the 'net
having a specific perception of what Grex is. A free net-type
community-based and run network that is free and open ot the public. Not
a private club run by and for its members. They come here knowing and
expecting this to be different than America Online. Thisis a public
service. An attempt to live up to some high ideals. Dont act so
propreitary that you forget what it is all about. Is grex here to serve
the needs of as many people as wish to use it or is it here to serve the
needs of its members?
The answer to that will determine whether grex dies like mnet is going to,
or whether it can prove thatthe concept can be self-sustaining simply by
atrracting enough people who want to be patrons. Think of this as PBS in
cyberspace, something offereed by the public because it should be offered.
|