response 35 of 125:

Oct 6 05:01 UTC 1998

When we asked ICNet about ISDN was several years ago.  ISDN pricing has
changed significantly since then, to the point where, depending on how they
have us set up, it may not cost them any more to give us an ISDN connection
than to give us a dial-up connection.  Still, at what we are paying for the
connection, I'd hesitate to ask for anything that would require them to do
any work.

I would support keeping this connection if I thought it would be useful.  I
don't.  If somebody wanted to donate the money to keep it going I wouldn't
object too strongly to keeping it (although, since I've been maintaining
Grex's end of it, I probably wouldn't be all that quick about doing anything
with it).

I really don't see a telco problem with the ISDN line lasting longer than four
days.  That was already really on the extreme side.  It involved Ameritech
*losing* the trouble ticket, *twice*.  I've never seen that before, and I deal
with Ameritech a lot.  I was also in the middle of moving at that point, so
I didn't have time to be as persistant about it as I otherwise would have
been.  An outage longer than that is certainly possible, but I would imagine
it would involve the person we're getting the ISDN connection from, rather
than involving Ameritech, and I'm assuming we would have a fair bit of
warning.  We have enough people involved here working for enough different
ISPs that if we have some warning of the connection going away temporarily
it shouldn't he hard to work around that.  I think in the case of an unplanned
outage that looked like it would be over soon, it would take us longer than
four days to get motivated enough to switch Grex over to a connection from
the provider other than the one we're currently using.  Using a connection
from any other source, including the ICNet connection, would require changing
the IP addresses of everything on Grex's network, and changing Grex's IP
address in DNS.  Changing all the IP addresses would be a major pain. 
Changing the DNS stuff would be harder given our current setup, since Grex
is the primary name server for our domain names, and the other DNS servers
that secondary it are connecting to Grex by IP address to get the data.

I do agree that having a mail machine connected to the Net by some other
method is good for backup purposes.  We also do need to move our primary DNS
server somewhere else, so that if something does happen to Grex or its
connection we can change DNS information easily (without that, a mail machine
to install temporarily somewhere would be pretty much useless).  I also doubt
that having a mail machine that is normally in the pumpkin, on Grex's
connection, with the idea that it can be moved somewhere offsite or onto a
different connection if needed will buy us anything, because moving it
somewhere on short notice isn't something we'd be all that likely to do.  It
would instead be better to have a backup mail machine sitting somewhere else,
set to accept mail for Grex if Grex's primary mail machine is unreachable.
Presumably, it also makes sense to combine this machine with the DNS machine,
which should also be offsite.  I sent mail to the board and staff a few days
ago offering to host such a machine.  There were a few strings attached,
basically to make sure this machine doesn't take over my life, but it
shouldn't be anything Grex couldn't live with for a machine that mostly won't
do anything.  Nobody responded to that offer.

response 39 of 125:

Oct 7 03:34 UTC 1998

My $.02:  If there is any desire/incliniation to give the ICNet connection
another shot, let's do it NOW!!!!!  Let's put an e-mail machine on it, ASAP,
and see if it can handle the load, and if it helps Grex.  If not, then let's
ditch it, and be done with it.  If it does help, then ask if it is worth the
money we are paying for it.  If not, then let's ditch it, and be done with
it.  If it is worth it, then drop the subject until someone has a legitimate
concern about it no longer being worth it b/c circumstances have changed.

I don't see any benefit to BICKERING about this any longer.

response 41 of 125:

Oct 9 02:17 UTC 1998

mdw is the best .. but notthe 'only.' 

response 43 of 125:

Oct 13 03:20 UTC 1998

   Thanks Richard but I'm only one many. ;-)

response 45 of 125:

Oct 14 14:14 UTC 1998

So, has the link been dropped?

response 47 of 125:

Oct 16 00:16 UTC 1998

So, it's been dropped?  I don't think it should be if we can come up with
a productive use for it.  If we were paying the entire connection ourselves
then I would see why, but hey, it's donated, it's cheaper than most people
would pay, so hang on to it.  If we can't find a good use for it, drop it.
If it's already dropped, no use in crying over spilt milk..

response 49 of 125:

Oct 17 02:18 UTC 1998

   There is.

response 51 of 125:

Oct 17 06:22 UTC 1998

I think Grex needs to look for better net connectivity.  Not that what
we have is bad or insufficient for our current needs, but our needs are
going to grow.  I expect demand for dial-ins will be very gradually
declining over the next few years, which will free up some money to do
better internet connectivity.  We should be looking around for good
deals, and for people willing to donate connectivity.

I do not see the old 28.8K link as fitting into this.  Yes, if someone
got off their butts and did some work, they might be able to put the
thing to some kind of use, but if someone is going to get off their
butts and do some work, then a much more sensible thing to be doing
would be to try to drum up a second ISDN connection or some such.  It
just doesn't make sense for us invest our money and labor in doing
something with such obsolete technology.  We aren't limited to that.

response 55 of 125:

Oct 17 19:23 UTC 1998

   Valerie is right.

   I am *really* digusted with the board for the way this has worked
out.  I am also extremely unhappy with the idea of throwing the link
away, as we don't have anything else to replace it.

   But even more than the fact the baord has made a bad move, the
process here was truly horrid.  We did not come to any consensus
here, and statements that this had been adaquately talked about are
simply false.

   They haven't been and there was never a staff meeting to talk
about this.

   So.  Bad decision coupled with an even worse decision making
process.  This does not bode well for Grex if the board starts
making decisions like this in the future.

response 57 of 125:

Oct 17 22:22 UTC 1998

   No argument there Steve, that the board is to make decisions.

   But I have every argument over the way this was done.  This was
one of those decisions that is financial, technical and strategic.
Staff never sat down and talked of this, specifically.  There has
been reference to item #31 in old coop where some small amount of
discussion was made, but that is hardly justification for the
decision.

   The reasons to keep the IC-Net link until something better
comes along (and it assuredly will, in time) are far beyond 
simple numerics.  Putting mail traffic on that line will be a
win for Grex, in that we've taken some traffic off our main
link.  Coupling that with the mail machine makes an even better
win for Grex.  Having an alternate point of entry for Grex staff
to be able to get in is an excellent thing, as well.

   Please understand that I don't "like" paying $39/mo for a
33K link, but it's all we can afford currently, given the
market rates for such a link.  Other faster methods of moving
data only cost more.

   But I'm drifting away from my main gripe, which is that the
process used to determine dropping the link was highly flawed.