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Grex > Coop9 > #55: Motion: To allow unregistered reading of all conferences | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 367 responses total. |
e4808mc
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response 332 of 367:
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Apr 20 15:21 UTC 1997 |
nako, the pine problem was random, some accounts experienced it and some
didn't. Ask Valerie for technical details, but "finger bombing" was the word
she used to explain it to me.
AS far as finding a responsible way to support itself, or its supporters, I
think Grex is doing the best it can, and needs continued support from those
of us who believe in its principles of open access. The unregistered reading
will not affect how busy the dial-in lines are, and those of us who use
dial-ins are a *major* expense to the system, what with phone lines, and
modems and so on. If you want to see a less busy access with dial ins, pledge
to pay the phone bill for one line for one year!
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tsty
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response 333 of 367:
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Apr 20 18:03 UTC 1997 |
delay in starting/opening any process is in no way a function of busy
or not-busy dialins. it is much closer to the total accumulation of
used ports regardless of the connection method.
and, naturally, the accumulation of total processses with regard to
the system resources demanded per process - total system load.
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rcurl
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response 334 of 367:
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Apr 20 20:29 UTC 1997 |
Re #329: nako's decision to not support the system because it isn't fast
enough for him - contributes to the system not being fast enough for him.
Only with support can the system speed and reliability be increased.
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pfv
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response 335 of 367:
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Apr 20 22:04 UTC 1997 |
Untrue..
It also depends on the NUMBER of ports opened, what can be run,
and whom.
contributes? yeah, sorry - not symptomatic, though
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scott
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response 336 of 367:
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Apr 20 22:45 UTC 1997 |
Since the unregistered reading will be (as presently planned) over the Web,
modem or pty availability is not an issue. System load is, though.
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jenna
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response 337 of 367:
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Apr 21 00:56 UTC 1997 |
I'd cancel my membership, but I didn't pay for it. You could send the
anonymous donor their money back, though... then again, that might be rough.
Oh well. I think pissing the people you DO have off isn't going to
get you ONE iota more money, or a NICER system.
I think it's going to get your a SHITTY reputation on other BBS's
and by word of mouth. I CERTAINLY don't refer people here anymore.
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rcurl
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response 338 of 367:
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Apr 21 05:25 UTC 1997 |
I just cannot understand that. The most "grexian" thing to do is increase
access. As far as membership goes - it sounds like you make it depend on
whether you win or lose a vote. That's not my basis for joining a good
cause. I find all the grumbling hollow. I still refer people here, as it
is the most unique institution on the internet. Nothing has been done to give
Grex a poor reputation. On the contrary, this should increase its good
reputation.
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nako
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response 339 of 367:
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Apr 21 05:41 UTC 1997 |
Aha - criticism for making a personal decision. Something that I would
have never expected from a community as open-minded as this one purports
itself to be. (For the humor-impared: yes, that was sarcasm.)
#332 - If pine's problems were old news, as you had put it - it's the
first I'd ever heard of it. I've talked about the problems I've had with
pine for the past couple of months in my responses to this issue - it's
rather unfortunate that it came until now before anyone said anything my
way about it.
#332, #333, #335, #336 - I acknowledge that the number of dial-ins and
system load are related indirectly, at best. I merely used it as an
example of *my* dissatisfaction with Grex. It all ties in to the problem
I have with Grex being more concerned with attracting new users than it is
trying to be able to provide a system stable enough to support the new
users.
#334 - Rane, I guess you didn't understand what I've been saying for the
past several months. I'm choosing not to renew, because I don't like the
fact that the considerations of adding to system load were made before
any positive changes were made to the impact upon that system load. It
doesn't matter if my $6 would make the system that much better in the
future - because I don't feel my $6 is making a difference right now.
At this point, I don't feel that my $6 per month is contributing to the
system in a way which I feel would be beneficial to the system as a whole.
And I don't think that waiting ten minutes just to read my mail, while
the rest of grex makes plans to open it up even more, is beneficial to
*me* right now.
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nako
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response 340 of 367:
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Apr 21 06:06 UTC 1997 |
Rane wrote:
> I just cannot understand that. The most "grexian" thing to do is
> increase access.
I won't argue this - I never have argued this. But everything has its
price, as does this measure. Increased access to the conference will
either cost money (in upgrading the system to meet the demand) or time
wasted (in waiting to actually access the features of that system).
You seem to be in favor of increased access at all costs - without
considering the costs that may be incurred, or the opinions and feelings
of those who may be opposed to it.
> As far as membership goes - it sounds like you make it depend on
> whether you win or lose a vote. That's not my basis for joining a good
> cause.
If people feel so strongly about this cause that they're willing to leave
in protest, Rane - let them do it. Don't try and tell people that their
feelings or opinions don't matter.
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tsty
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response 341 of 367:
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Apr 21 08:45 UTC 1997 |
the IC hasn;'t said much, yet
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cmcgee
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response 342 of 367:
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Apr 21 15:58 UTC 1997 |
Some of us are willing to live with the slowness of Grex, some aren't. If
a member of a community decides to leave that community, people shouldn't
criticise his/her decision as rane did. Wish him well, tell him he's welcome
back if he ever wants to rejoin us, and then get on with the community.
There is no need to discuss/argue about whether his feelings about Grex are
right or wrong, logical or illogical. The scientific fact is: That is how
he feels. We are a voluntary organization, and when people don't want to
belong any more, they can quit. No debate.
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remmers
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response 343 of 367:
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Apr 21 16:35 UTC 1997 |
Oh gack, now we're arguing about arguing.
Michael stated his views on certain issues, Rane stated his.
They disagree. I view this kind of open airing of differences
to be healthy.
Telling people to shut up because "it's wrong to criticize" I
find to be not so healthy.
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remmers
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response 344 of 367:
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Apr 21 16:35 UTC 1997 |
(Not that I'm telling anybody to shut up, of course. :)
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scg
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response 345 of 367:
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Apr 21 16:52 UTC 1997 |
I hesitate to say this, because money is still something Grex needs, but money
is not what is keeping us slow right now. What is keeping Grex slow, to the
point where it might be fair to say that Grex's infrastructure is crumbling,
is a lack of staff time. We have plenty of new modems that aren't being used,
phone lines that aren't being used, an expensive new computer that is not yet
being used. Most of staff is too busy to deal with very much Grex stuff (me
included), and those who are doing a lot of Grex stuff are very busy with the
day to day issus of keeping the system going. This is a serious problem.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
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rcurl
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response 346 of 367:
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Apr 21 19:54 UTC 1997 |
I have not criticized anyone's personal decisions, but solely said I
disagreed, and stated my perspective. How is that criticism? Are people
going to start referring to the two sides of an issue as *criticism*? So,
they think democracy is founded in criticism? That's is an incorrect
concept.
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mdw
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response 347 of 367:
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Apr 22 03:16 UTC 1997 |
"Lack of staff time" is *much* too simplistic a description of why grex
is slow. Sure, with *enough* staff, we could make grex faster, but it
all depends...
Firstly, one of the major constraints on the speed of grex is the speed
of the internet link. Improving that is not black magic, all it takes
is cash. Lots of it. If we translate this into terms of staff, then
what we are talking about is getting loads of volunteer grex "staff",
then re-hiring them out as slave labour to mop floors, wait on people,
and &etc. Hmm... It might not have to be lots. I think even one or
two full-time slaves at minimum wage would do it...
Another constraint is the speed of the CPU. We have a new faster CPU,
so yup, all it takes is staff time. But not just *any* old staff time -
it needs to be somebody who knows something about vme hardware, sunos
system administration, and somebody who is really trustworthy. *That*
is not nearly so common as might be supposed.
It is also a fallacy to suppose that because something has fallen behind
schedule because of lack of human resources, that adding more people
will necessarily make it happen faster. In fact, it is much more common
to find that adding people to a late project makes it even more late.
Adding people tends to add at least exponentially to communications
problems, and since communcations problems are often one of the reasons
projects are late, the consequences are obvious. Now, it would be a
mistake to think that grex staff are crippled because of a lack of an
ability to communicate. But I would say that we grex staff have *not*
done well in terms of communicating ideals and practical information to
new grex staff. In any event, this is something I think all of us grex
staff are coming to realize, and it is very likely that there will be
material improvement here.
Money, on the other hand, is something grex staff *can't* do anything
about. Also, money *can* save staff time. A significant improvement in
link speed *will* cost money. Adding more dialin lines will also almost
certainly cost money. Things that are needed there include:
a working terminal server
33k modems for all of the current & any new lines, with
dumb mode straps
both of these are *definitely* available, IF you have the bucks.
Currently, staff time has been sucked up by trying to make a donated
free terminal server work (it's never been reliable) and by problems
created by 19.2k modems that lack dumb mode straps. Money is *also*
needed *JUST* to keep grex operating at its current level.
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jenna
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response 348 of 367:
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Apr 24 23:36 UTC 1997 |
rane, then you don't understand.
"Grexian" is obvioulsy an ideal I no longer belong to
if it involves violating my personal space. I never
claimed to be "Grexian" I am merely a person who has been here
and wihes to stay here if at all possible
(I'm still aiting, giving this all the chance to straighten out)
I don't give a FLYING fuck what YOUR picture of the GREXIAN
IDEAL says *I* should do. I care about how I feel and
what I think,a dn you're PLENTY smart enough to understand THAT.
Grex's mission, IMHO, should NOT be to provide the most
access at the cost of providing a community in which the users feel
safe or ok with it. WHO cares if grex is accessible from every anle
if NObody wants to be here anymore! WHO REALLY cares about a
ghosttown? --walks out shrugging, having work to do--
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rcurl
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response 349 of 367:
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Apr 25 03:45 UTC 1997 |
There is absolutely nothing in the founding documents or any discussion
I heard here when I joined in 1993, about "personal space". Apparently
you found some in the incidental ways Grex has been run. But it was founded
to provide maximum access to anyone under the sun, and that is all that is
being done. There are technical limits on what can be handled, but "personal
space" was never a consideration, except for the freedom to be an
anonymous user. Many users are right now. That is a simple answer to
creating one's private "personal space".
I think the only people that will walk out are those that have a problem
dealing with a public forum.
Incidentally, there is no evidence whatever that anything will change for
current users with unregistered web reading. I don't think there will be
any noticeable change, or any problems we haven't already had. I know a
good way to find out, though.
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nako
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response 350 of 367:
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Apr 25 05:30 UTC 1997 |
In #349, Rane wrote:
> I think the only people that will walk out are those that have a problem
> dealing with a public forum.
I give up - it's become apparent that Rane doesn't understand what I've
been saying for *months* now. I'll say it again - in case it'll do some
good:
I no longer choose to support Grex because I don't think that the
suggestion of unregistered reading is appropriate at this time, given the
current quality of Grex's operation. Period.
You've repeatedly ignored the numerous times I've said that I don't have a
problem with unregistered reading - because you continue to group me into
a contrary position. If Grex had been running smoother two months ago,
I'd have voted yes. If anything had been done to make Grex run better,
I'd have renewed my membership. Nothing has changed here - and as such, I
feel my money is being wasted.
And Rane says he's not criticizing anyone? Yeah, and wild bears don't do
their duty in the woods, either.
> Incidentally, there is no evidence whatever that anything will change
> for current users with unregistered web reading. I don't think there will be
> any noticeable change, or any problems we haven't already had. I know a
> good way to find out, though.
This is one of the flimsiest arguments I've heard regarding this issue.
There's no evidence to support or refute *either* of our positions -
because nothing has been tried yet! How can you refute my arguments with
evidence that doesn't exist?
My arguments are based upon the notion that Grex, given no changes, is too
slow of a system *right now* to reliably handle the load that unregistered
reading will place upon it.
Oh wait - I forgot. Rane is *so adamant* about unregistered reading at
all costs, he doesn't seem to care about the consequences - who decides to
leave for what reason, or now, apparently, on how slow the system gets as
a result.
What's the point of having more people accessing a system that
proportionally fewer people will be successfully able to access?
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jenna
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response 351 of 367:
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Apr 25 23:10 UTC 1997 |
forget about it rane. there's such a thing as a community, but I imagine
someone like yo woldn't understand. --OK... NO more ad hominums and falimng.
Nako, Rane, Jenna, shuttup! I mean it! This is ridiculous. We KNOW
we don't understand each other. I understand Rane's position, but not his
intolerance; Nako understnds the issue most people are having and
has a seperate but related problem; Rane doesn't understand me or Nako (or
maybe is accidentally lumping Nako in with others) So lets forgetit.
Flame wars for mail, please.
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tsty
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response 352 of 367:
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Apr 26 11:54 UTC 1997 |
btw, here is some edited email i received during the last regular
election cycle ... editing to preserve anonymity, i might add.
----clip
All I can say is, Grex isn't
close to what it was when I first logged on, in 94. It has
changed in many ways that I dislike, and the best way, I have
found, to show a disappreciation of something is to pull out
one's support of it.
[clip]
hoping that maybe I could somehow help get grex back closer
to where it had come from. [clip]
[clip] Fairly certain that the ones with a voice
at grex didn't want to head the way I had in mind, I did the best
I could do- I left Grex to its' own devices. If they were right,
I figured that Grex would prosper fine without my support, and if
they were wrong.. well, they couldn't say I hadn;t tried to steer
them away from it.
I wish you well, TS. With any luck,
you won't have happen to you, what happened to me.
[clip] <<of a hard, by-name slam>>
Perhaps it is cruel of me to enjoy that last
part, but you know, I cannot apologize for it. It just went to
show that while Grex didn't want my ideas, they didn't want his
either, which were typically on the opposite end from mine.
but I
guess I did log in not too long ago. Whatever. There is of course
one last reason I don't wish to support Grex- it allows [clip]
access to its' policy-deciding conference. I'd rather not put my
money into a place where he has a voice, thank you.
Good day, tsty.
---clip
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janc
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response 353 of 367:
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Apr 26 12:54 UTC 1997 |
huh?
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remmers
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response 354 of 367:
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Apr 26 13:41 UTC 1997 |
Sounds like whoever-it-was is withdrawing support because we
don't censor people that he or she doesn't like.
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jenna
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response 355 of 367:
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Apr 28 22:14 UTC 1997 |
well, that's just the last one, right? *is confused about the format
of that*
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mdw
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response 356 of 367:
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Apr 29 02:08 UTC 1997 |
I don't know that it's all that appropriate to post such mail. There is
no evidence to suggest that the original author of this text wanted this
material made public, and there are enough lacunae in the text as
presented that it is doubtful that our interpretation of the text is or
could be at all close to the original author's intentions. One thing is
clear: the original author of this text is unavailable to be part of
this discussion.
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