response 32 of 78:

Jul 9 17:27 UTC 1999

Just for the sake of being idiotic, what would the cost of having an 800
number be?

response 34 of 78:

Jul 9 18:29 UTC 1999

And how long they call. If someone calls Grex now, and doesn't terminate the
call properly, it's a hassle for Grex. If it were a toll-free number, it would
be an expense as well as a hassle.

response 36 of 78:

Jul 9 18:56 UTC 1999

I'm under the impression that the going rate for 800 numbers is something like
8 cents a minute at this point.  It can get somewhat cheaper with really high
volume.

response 38 of 78:

Jul 9 21:01 UTC 1999

If anyone had asked Grex for help in setting up a conferencing system 
like this one, I'd be in favor of helping them.  I'd think aruba's 
suggestion of loans was at least worth considering.  It's a *lot* of 
work to set up a system like this, and beyond that it's even more work 
to run it, fund it, help all the users, etc.  If a loan and some advice 
and moral support would help get the job done, I'd want to see Grex do 
what it could.

However, there have been no requests, or even any speculations such as 
"Sure would like to do something like Grex in Anchorage".  On the 
Internet, it doesn't matter where you are.  We can serve Anchorage, have 
an Anchorage conference, and have the users come in to here, using the 
resources we already have, without bothering with another system, 
another staff, another Board, another office, more phone lines and 
Internet connections and all that.  I don't see how it benefits Grex, or 
users in Anchorage, or anyone at all, to have us remotely put up a 
system in Anchorage and try to make sure someone there administers it 
and funds it and runs it.  It's easier, cheaper, more reliable (we've 
been doing it for most of a decade, and almost 2 decades if you count 
M-Net), and generally better all around to just keep it all here.

I'm not opposed to other systems.  I'm just not wildly enthusiastic 
about Grex spending much time/effort/money in getting other systems set 
up, until and unless people in other places take the initiative to set 
them up.  *Then* we can help them.-

response 40 of 78:

Jul 9 22:00 UTC 1999

The thing is that while grex is getting in a financially strong position,
it is not attracting *that* many more active users.  The conferences
overrall level of activity is I would imagine fairly stable, whereas to
achieve grex's true potential, you need more people participating.  How do
you *get* more people?  

One way is to put dialins in other locations, so that Grex can develop a
broader base than it has.  If people can dialin as opposed to using up
time on their ISP to telnet here, they will be more likely to come.  It
would foster the idea that grex is more than a local ann arbor bbs.

Another way would be to get a new ISP offering better connections and
bandwith so people do graphics on confs and in their homepages. As long as
grexis text only, there is a signficant segment of people who wont ever
bother coming here.

If grex has succeeded at what it is, the challenge is to see if it can
grow from there.  

response 42 of 78:

Jul 9 22:31 UTC 1999

Re resp:40 -  Golly!  For once, I find myself not only not annoyed by
rchard, but indeed pleased at the cogent and coherent explanation he's given.

And some ppl say that there's no such thing as miracles!  :-)

response 44 of 78:

Jul 10 11:54 UTC 1999

        Ahrm, GREX loses money?

response 46 of 78:

Jul 10 20:55 UTC 1999

Mark has me confused with Marcus.  Happens all the time. ;-)

response 48 of 78:

Jul 11 00:49 UTC 1999

Establishing a POP is more than just putting a POP somewhere. Unless people
know about it, they're not going to use it, which means we'd have to spend--and
spend quite a bit--on publicizing that POP.

response 50 of 78:

Jul 11 08:39 UTC 1999

If grex were a "commercial" organization, a lot of the people who have
donated time or resources would expect to get paid for it, at market
rates.  That means, in very rough terms, at *least* $50k/y/fte (salary +
benefits + office expenses such as workstations and, yes, office space.)
(Realistically, this would be more like $100k.) Something like grex
would certainly require at least 2 fte's, but realistically, this is
more like 5.  Some of the 5 could be el cheapo summer interns and the
like, of course.  Compared to this, hardware expenses for grex proper
wouldn't be so great, except it would be harder to not justify getting
new faster stuff each year.  Say, another $10K/yr.  So, as a "starving"
startup, you're looking at $110K/yr (and the stock option plan better be
damn good).  More realistically, you're looking at $500K+.  This means a
membership base of 10x to 40x the size of the current grex base.  That
in turn basically means a large metropolitan area such as new york city,
SF, etc.

When you look at the economics, it's pretty easy to see why the well and
arbornet, started by the same people with the same goal ("make money")
went in such different directions.

response 52 of 78:

Jul 12 23:23 UTC 1999

the grex store should get set up to take credit card purchases, so it 
can take orders directly over the 'net.  Then it could sell a lot more 
t-shirts and get into other things like coffee mugs (werent grex coffee 
mugs sold in the past?)

response 54 of 78:

Jul 13 14:22 UTC 1999

Dialin access is only going the way of the mastadon because large numbers of
people use systems they _can't_ dial in to.  Dialling in to Grex is much more
convenient that telnetting if you happen to be local (no wait, less lag,
etc.)  

I agree that grex doesn't need any more A2 dialin lines, since the existing
ones are never busy.  Dialin lines in other area codes sounds like an
interesting experiment.  

response 56 of 78:

Jul 13 18:06 UTC 1999

        Allright, I'll concede to the objection over my use of the term
"commercial" - there, outside of t-shirts and mugs and the like, is no strict
relationship between the services offered and the funds donated.

        As a financial entity, though, it's my understanding that GREX survives
largely in part due to the contributions of a handfull of core folks, most
of whom have been here since the system's inception.  My point was that in
order to make a sister system work, we'd require a likewise skilled group of
people willing to donate a great deal of time and money over the years, or
the sister system would not be viable.