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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 560 responses total. |
keesan
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response 300 of 560:
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Nov 3 19:34 UTC 2003 |
Godunov is the original spelling - what is Gudenov?
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michaela
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response 301 of 560:
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Nov 3 20:12 UTC 2003 |
IHB Ken is coming to visit this weekend. :)
IAHB this year is flying by, which means I'm closer to graduation. ;)
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edina
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response 302 of 560:
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Nov 3 20:23 UTC 2003 |
IVHB we are going to have my girlfriend Max set up nicely in her new house,
as my friends are really being groovy about helping her, and I'm ecstatic
because my boyfriend is really awesome.
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rcurl
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response 303 of 560:
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Nov 3 20:43 UTC 2003 |
Re #300: the original spelling is in Cyrillic. Godunov or Gudenov are just
transliterations, which depend upon who does it.
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keesan
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response 304 of 560:
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Nov 3 20:53 UTC 2003 |
Gudenov is in no way a transliteration of the Cyrillic. Godunov is. You can't
just substitute any vowel you feel like when transliterating. Gudenov may
be loosely based on the cartoon character Goodenough (or however that is
spelled). There is an opera Boris Godunov, based on the character of that
name who was a tsar in medieval Russia. Stressed on the second o. The first
o is pronounced as unstressed a (a as in father) and the u as in fortune.
Boris is also pronounced with the o like a, and the stress is on the i (as
in machine).
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mcnally
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response 305 of 560:
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Nov 3 20:59 UTC 2003 |
Except that the cartoon character was Boris *Badenov*..
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rcurl
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response 306 of 560:
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Nov 3 21:32 UTC 2003 |
English spelling is marvelously flexible, and that "e" in Gudenov can be
pronounced many ways. But that is besides the point. Your transliterating
preference is personal - even generally accepted. There is something to be
said for consitency, but it is still subjective. There is NO exact
transliteration that will cause an English speaker to pronounce the name
exactly as a Russian speaker would. The sounds do not occur in English.
Look up "Boris Gudenov" in Google, and you will get many "hits" for it.
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gull
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response 307 of 560:
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Nov 3 21:39 UTC 2003 |
I don't think Google is a good authority on spelling. I just got 2,030 hits
searching on "Goerge W. Bush".
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mcnally
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response 308 of 560:
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Nov 3 21:51 UTC 2003 |
I'm trying to imagine the reaction Rane would have to someone insisting
on being similarly sloppy and dismissive of established conventions in
his field of expertise as he is claiming the right to be in Sindi's.
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rcurl
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response 309 of 560:
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Nov 3 21:59 UTC 2003 |
I'm not dismissive of "established conventions". They are essential for
accurate exchange of information. However I am pointing out that the
spelling of Gudenov/Godunov is not a universally accepted convention, nor
a necessary one for accurate exchange of relevant information. If you
want that, write it in Cyrillic. That is what would be done in precise
scholarly exchanges. Philosphers writing in English still usually give
the German word paranthetically for many central concepts.
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keesan
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response 310 of 560:
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Nov 3 23:51 UTC 2003 |
Godunov is transliterated according to the rules of the Board of Geographic
Names, which the US Government asks me to use when translating. I don't know
of any transliteration system where you can use an e to represent the sound
u in Godunov, or u to represent o. This is simply a mistake, not a
transliteration, and like Mike pointed out, based on Badenov.
I have seen the final v transliterated as f or ff, which represents the actual
pronunciation. There are alternate transliteration systems but they all seem
to agree on the vowels. The consonants are transliterated variously depending
on the language into which they are transliterated and on which system you
use in that language. For instance the sound 'y' can be written j or y, the
sound j (in judge) as dzh or dj or j, the sound ch (church) as tsch (via
German), tch (French) or ch (English). Tchaikowsky has the w of German for
a sound pronounced v, and an i where BGN wants y. Russians appear to have
their own way of transliterating Russian into Latin characters.
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mcnally
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response 311 of 560:
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Nov 4 00:27 UTC 2003 |
Well, from now on we'll just take anything Rane has to say on Slavic
languages with a grain of NiCl.
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gelinas
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response 312 of 560:
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Nov 4 02:47 UTC 2003 |
Nickel Chloride?
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keesan
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response 313 of 560:
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Nov 4 03:08 UTC 2003 |
Or NeCl, since the vowels should not matter to Rane.
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rcurl
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response 314 of 560:
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Nov 4 03:15 UTC 2003 |
NiCl does not exist.
Please provide a URL for these Russian name transliterations by the
Board of Geographic Names. I have had dealing with BGN but only know
them as adjucating the naming of geographic features for use on US
government published maps.
What is the Russian transliteration into Latin alphabet of the name we are
discussing?
Of course, we are not trying to "represent the sound u in Godunov", but to
represent the sound in the Russian name. I have no objection to your
choice of transliteration, but have only been pointing out that the
alternate transliteration Gudenov is frequently used. This cannot be
denied, considering the frequency with which it is used and published.
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michaela
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response 315 of 560:
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Nov 4 07:28 UTC 2003 |
*sigh*
New item, perhaps?
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happyboy
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response 316 of 560:
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Nov 4 08:31 UTC 2003 |
*sigh*
*huggles*
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bhoward
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response 317 of 560:
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Nov 4 10:13 UTC 2003 |
The Day is Done.
That all by itself is cause for the happy-happy joy-joy two-step.
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edina
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response 318 of 560:
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Nov 4 14:20 UTC 2003 |
IVHB I had a great conversation with my ex last night, basically telling him
to cop himself on or we were done being friends. He chose to cop himself on.
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aruba
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response 319 of 560:
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Nov 4 14:32 UTC 2003 |
"cop himself on"?
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edina
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response 320 of 560:
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Nov 4 14:32 UTC 2003 |
Get a grip. Check himself.
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gull
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response 321 of 560:
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Nov 4 14:39 UTC 2003 |
Re #308: What, you haven't figured it out by now? Rane is an expert in
every field. That's why he's so condescending to the rest of us.
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edina
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response 322 of 560:
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Nov 4 14:42 UTC 2003 |
Heh. And yet another area to use "Cop yourself on".
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keesan
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response 323 of 560:
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Nov 4 15:33 UTC 2003 |
Transliterations represent not the sounds but the letters in the original
language, by substituting one or more letters in the target language for one
(or occasionally more) letters in the source language. I don't have a URL
for BGN rules, just the book sent me by the government when I was working for
them as a translator. Gudenov is a mistake, not a transliteration. Copying
a mistake, no matter how many times, does not make it correct.
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keesan
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response 324 of 560:
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Nov 4 15:48 UTC 2003 |
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.
Godunov, Boris
(b [schwa.gif] r [emacr.gif] s' g [schwa.gif] d [oomacr.gif]
nof') [this is the pronunciation, with final stresses]
c.1551-1605, czar of Russia (1598-1605). A favorite
of [20]Ivan IV (Ivan the Terrible), he helped organize Ivan's social
and administrative system. After Ivan's death (1584), Boris became
virtual ruler of Russia, ostensibly as regent for Ivan's young son
Feodor I, who was married to Boris's sister. Boris was popularly
believed to have ordered the murder (1591) of Feodor's younger brother
and heir, [21]Dmitri, in order to secure the succession for himself.
Upon Feodor's death (1598), an assembly of the ruling class chose
Boris as czar. Under his rule the Russian church was recognized (1589)
as an independent patriarchate, equal to other Eastern churches; peace
was obtained with Poland and Sweden, and colonization of the southern
steppes and W Siberia was spurred. Most important, Boris continued
Ivan's policy of strengthening the power of state officials and
townspeople at the expense of the [22]boyars. Yet famine (1602-4) and
popular distrust undermined his support, and when a pretender to the
throne appeared claiming to be Feodor's brother Dmitri, many rallied
to his support and he easily invaded Russia in 1604. Boris died, and
his son, [23]Feodor II, was unable to defend the throne against the
false Dmitri. Boris's life is the subject of a drama by Pushkin that
was the basis for Moussorgsky's famous opera.
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright (c) 2003 Columbia
University Press.
I found 29,200 or so google hits for Boris Godunov (and 52,000 for
Godunov). I found 114 hits for Boris Gudenov, including a description of
how Lee Harvey Oswald went to an opera of that name, and a suggested list
of ways to name your pet guinea pig (Carmen, Otello).
Musorgsky is the BGN transliteration, also Fyodor (two syllables). The ou
in Moussorgsky is via French. Often people want their drivers' license
translated with the French transliteration to match their passport and I
go along with this alternate system of ou for u (both pronounce u as in
lunar), but not e for u.
There is a 1980 painting of Alexander Gudenov by Andy Warhol, along with
Mary Tyler Moore.
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