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Grex > Agora35 > #124: Win the electoral college but lose the popular vote? | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 409 responses total. |
senna
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response 289 of 409:
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Nov 30 19:09 UTC 2000 |
One of the reasons turnout is so lousy is apathy toward the available options.
And wouldn't you know it, I don't think either of the parties are doing
themselves any favors in that department.
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krj
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response 290 of 409:
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Dec 3 07:28 UTC 2000 |
Today's Miami Herald (www.miamiherald.com) runs a statistical analysis
arguing that Florida's elections screwups cost Gore a 20,000 vote win
in Florida.
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mdw
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response 291 of 409:
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Dec 3 07:38 UTC 2000 |
That sounds about right -- from the sounds of it, most of it is the
butterfly ballot.
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bdh3
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response 292 of 409:
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Dec 3 09:44 UTC 2000 |
Its december third. Get over it. The election as agreed to by all
parties concerned in advance is over. Live with it.
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rcurl
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response 293 of 409:
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Dec 3 21:33 UTC 2000 |
There are full provisions in Florida law for contesting elections, and
this election is sure contestable. Your mantra of "get over it" is
just the hubris of those with the temporary upper hand. They may, in
fact, win, with all of the delaying tactics they are playing, but in
the end the truth will become known, and they will suffer the backlash.
There is a saying about reaping what you sow.
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mdw
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response 294 of 409:
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Dec 4 02:51 UTC 2000 |
That might be true if voters had a memory longer than 1 week.
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krj
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response 295 of 409:
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Dec 4 05:50 UTC 2000 |
Seminole County: uh-oh. On MSNBC's "Hardball" show, a Democratic
congressman from Florida charges that Democrats were denied the opportunity
to fix defective absentee ballot applications there.
It's agreed by both sides that the Republicans were given access to
fix their defective absentee ballot applications. The argument is that
this was just a technical violation of the rules. But if a charge that
the Democrats were denied similar access stands up, then I think it
becomes awfully likely that those absentee votes will be tossed.
Oh dear.
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bru
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response 296 of 409:
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Dec 4 12:29 UTC 2000 |
On face the nation, one of the people said that the Dems WANT to drag this
out so that the Florida legislature HAS to make a decision on choosing Bush
electors. They figure to make gains in the next election if it does occur.
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senna
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response 297 of 409:
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Dec 4 12:59 UTC 2000 |
Ken sounds legitimately concerned that Florida might be overturned. It sounds
suspiciously like he is more worried about public opinion than he is about
getting his candidate in the white house. I can't say I'd blame him.
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mdw
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response 298 of 409:
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Dec 4 18:43 UTC 2000 |
I know my candidate won't make it to the whitehouse no matter which side
wins in Florida. I would just like to see the Republicans make as much
of an honest effort to get all the votes counted accurately and fairly
as the Democrats.
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aruba
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response 299 of 409:
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Dec 4 19:22 UTC 2000 |
I heard a reporter on one of the news channels say what Ken heard the
congressman say on Hardball. I would like to hear more about it.
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aaron
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response 300 of 409:
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Dec 4 21:21 UTC 2000 |
U.S. Newswire, December 3, 2000, Sunday
Key Depositions Completed in Seminole County Republican Election Fraud
Case, Top Witness for the Defense Provides Crucial Testimony for the
Plaintiff
Boca Raton, Florida: Depositions continued Dec. 2 in preparation for
Wednesday's trial of Seminole County election supervisor Sandra Goard.
Goard is accused of illegally permitting Republican Party officials to fill
in 4,700 incomplete GOP absentee ballot requests while simultaneously
rejecting incomplete Democratic absentee ballot requests.
The plaintiff in the case is Seminole County attorney Harry Jacobs, who is
being represented by Gerald Richman of Richman, Greer, Weil, Brumbaugh,
Mirabito and Christensen of Palm Beach.
Richman characterized the Dec. 2 depositions -- all witnesses called by the
defense -- as helpful in creating a record that proves his client's case.
Jacobs himself was deposed, but according to Richman the key moment was the
testimony of WDBO reporter Ken Altieri. He testified that he interviewed
Goard on tape saying that absentee ballot request forms without voter
identification numbers would not be honored. This interview was broadcast
at the same time as Goard was permitting workers paid by the Republican
Party to complete the forms.
With most of the depositions now complete Richman says, "I am very
confident we will be ready for the one day trial next Wednesday that Judge
Clark has told us to expect."
On Monday statistical and computer experts are scheduled to be deposed.
Meanwhile, the ad hoc organization set up to support Harry Jacobs, the
plaintiff in this case, has begun operation of a Web site at
http://justiceinflorida.com. The Justice in Florida committee has been
organized by Gregg Weiss, a financial planner in Boca Raton and other
Floridians. Democrats.com, the largest independent community of Democratic
activists on the Internet is also lending organizational support to this
effort. In the first 24 hours of operation the Web site generated more than
a dozen contributions to support the out-of-pocket expenses associated with
the suit. The Justice in Florida Committee can be reached at 561-477-0930,
on the Internet at justiceinflorida.com or via e-mail at
info@justiceinflorida.com. Non-tax deductible contributions will also be
accepted at Post Office Box 970446 Boca Raton, Fla. 33497-0446.
This grassroots effort is entirely independent of the Florida Democratic
Party or the Gore for President campaign.
Earlier this year, Florida Republicans mailed out thousands of reply
requests for absentee ballots to GOP voters that left blank the voter ID
number required by Florida's anti-fraud election law. Goard, a Republican,
contacted GOP County Chairman James Stelling, who provided two workers
worked in her offices filling in the missing voter ID numbers. Under oath
yesterday Republican Party regional director Michael Leach admitted that he
was in the supervisors office doing this for at least 15 days,
unsupervised, and that he changed more than 2,000 forms. Goard did not
process similar incomplete requests for absentee ballots from Democratic
voters and refused to allow Democratic officials the same opportunity to
complete them. Florida law requires the voter, a family member or guardian
to complete all information on the absentee ballot application.
A 1998 court ruling granted Florida judges broad authority to invalidate
elections if fraud or even unintentional error results in a flawed outcome.
In Seminole County, Bush also won the 15,000 absentee ballots cast by a
2-to-1 margin.
CONTACT:Greg Weiss, 561-477-0930 or info@justiceinflorida.com; Web site:
http://justiceinflorida.com
------------------------------
Los Angeles Times, December 2, 2000, Page A-1
Decision 2000 / America Waits
* Democrats filed suit in Tallahassee, the state capital, seeking to
disqualify nearly 10,000 absentee ballots cast in Martin County, in eastern
Florida. The county's Republican supervisor of elections, Peggy S. Robbins,
allowed GOP workers to take flawed absentee ballot forms home and correct
them but allegedly denied Democrats the same opportunity to make fixes. The
case is similar to one involving absentee ballot applications in Seminole
County.
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aruba
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response 301 of 409:
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Dec 5 04:50 UTC 2000 |
Thanks Aaron. That's a very frightening story.
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albaugh
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response 302 of 409:
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Dec 5 16:47 UTC 2000 |
Yeah, it's "interesting" and all. And if some elections officials violated
some statutes re: ballot *applications*, they'll have to answer for it. But
there is no notion or proof of fraud or tampering with the actual *ballots*.
So don't look for any "remedy" whereby properly filled out, returned, and
counted ballots are thrown out.
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aaron
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response 303 of 409:
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Dec 5 16:52 UTC 2000 |
Why not? The reason for the strict language of the statute is that there
was prior fraud in the application process which required the exclusion of
all absentee ballots from a particular county's election result.
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albaugh
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response 304 of 409:
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Dec 5 16:56 UTC 2000 |
Yep, go ahead and whitewash the whole county, make sure that every vote [not]
counts. But will it play in Peoria? (Depends on whether Peoria is under
Chicago's thumb, I guess.)
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aaron
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response 305 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:01 UTC 2000 |
That's the reason the Democrats have not endorsed the litigation - it
conflicts with their call that every vote should be counted. Nonetheless,
it seems no more fair to exclude the ballots of people whose votes were
not properly tabulated by machines in other counties. For the Republicans
to argue that certain overseas absentee ballots should be counted in
violation of Florida law, and that various other absentee ballots should
be counted despite violations of a fraud prevention statute in the
application process... doesn't that make it somewhat hypocritical for
them to oppose hand counts that are specifically authorized by statute?
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mdw
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response 306 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:08 UTC 2000 |
I think the issue is that they *weren't* properly filled out. Having
election officials selectively fill out Republican ballots sure sounds
like fraud to me.
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albaugh
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response 307 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:09 UTC 2000 |
The problem with hand-counting as it's been done in strategic democratic
dominated counties only is the 30-something varities of ways the counters have
used to try to divine voter intent. No one has ever averred that absentee
ballots were not filled out correctly, in a manner that would require someone
to have to divine intent.
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albaugh
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response 308 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:10 UTC 2000 |
Read very slowly and carefully mdw: The *ballots* were not touched by any
elections officials. At issue are the ballot *applications*. Such documents
in no way indicate anyone's preferences for elected office.
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mdw
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response 309 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:26 UTC 2000 |
I believe the actual data field missing was the "election number", some
sort of identifying code probably used to determine if someone voted
more than once. Presumably, the election officials had access to the
full thing the voter had filled out, application *AND* votes [if they
weren't in fact one document], because the news report is they were able
to identify those ballots belonging to "republican" voters and
selectively filled those out. If the news report is accurate, wouldn't
you call that fraud?
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aaron
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response 310 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:48 UTC 2000 |
re #306: Fraud suggests malfeasance. This could simply be misfeasance.
re #308: The Florida statute was given its present form to prevent
fraud in the application process, which necessarily carries over to
the election process.
re #309: The Republicans sent out the applications, containing what they
thought was all necessary information save for a date and
signature, to probable Republican absentee voters. It was not
difficult for them to identify and correct only those
applications, as they had designed and printed them.
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rcurl
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response 311 of 409:
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Dec 5 17:51 UTC 2000 |
The last news report I heard on this said that the Republicans were
given access to the applications to correct them but the Democrats
were refused similar access to correct Democratic applications. But
the details have been confusing and contradictory in several reports
I have heard. Maybe now that the other stuff is getting cleared away,
we will hear an accurate report about the absentee applications.
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carson
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response 312 of 409:
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Dec 5 18:07 UTC 2000 |
(applications. here, one more time: applications. once more, with
CAPS: APPLICATIONS.)
(the officials were able to identify the APPLICATIONS sent out by
Republicans because the APPLICATIONS were missing voter ID numbers. the
Republicans were permitted to fill-in the voter IDs on the APPLICATIONS in
Martin County because the Martin County office didn't have enough people
there to fill-in the missing IDs *as other counties were doing*.)
(any possible voter fraud could only have resulted if multiple ballots
were returned with identical voter IDs. adding the proper voter IDs to
APPLICATIONS, which had to be completed *before* an actual ballot could be
sent out, would not in and of itself result in fraud.)
(it's still questionable as to whether the APPLICATIONS became official
records once received by the county and thus should not have been touched
by officials from either party, but voter fraud isn't the issue.)
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/12/11/county.html
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gelinas
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response 313 of 409:
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Dec 5 18:49 UTC 2000 |
Since folks don't seem to understand: If you submit an incorrect,
incomplete or otherise invalid APPLICATION, you DON'T GET A BALLOT.
YOU do NOT get to vote. Period. End of discussion. You missed the
election. Just as if you slept through the whole day the polls were open.
You weren't there.
These incomplete, invalid APPLICATIONS were (apparently, allegedly,
to be determined as a fact in a trial court) IMPROPERLY AND ILLEGALLY
completed, THEREFORE the ballots they represent WERE NEVER CAST and
*should* be discarded. Just as the ones with improper postmarks *should*
have been discarded. (For all I know, my overseas ballot _was_ discarded.
But that was more than a decade ago, and in Michigan, not Florida.)
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