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Grex > Coop13 > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
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| 25 new of 480 responses total. |
slynne
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response 286 of 480:
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Dec 14 14:33 UTC 2006 |
Indeed. I think that one of the problems staff has is that the current
system works very well when everyone is local. But everyone isnt local
anymore. I am not sure what the answer is. I know that Grex owns a
speaker phone so it is possible for at least one non-local person to
phone into a staff meeting. That might be a start.
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keesan
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response 287 of 480:
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Dec 14 14:56 UTC 2006 |
Is anyone currently working on putting back newuser?
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mary
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response 288 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:06 UTC 2006 |
Our staff have the technical savvy to connect real time, via voice and
video. Mostly, it's the time zone thing that's difficult. If it's seven
o'clock at night here it can be five in the morning there. Yuck. The
staff conference is available 24/7 but that's not the most robust way of
sharing ideas. Again, issues, but not insurmountable ones.
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cross
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response 289 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:13 UTC 2006 |
Right. It's hard to feel particularly involved when you're just informed
that decisions were made a staff meeting the night before that you didn't
even know was going to happen and you certainly weren't part of the loop.
Of grex's staff, for the several years I was on staff, the only person's
voice I ever heard was Jan's, when I called him to ask what the root
password was.
Despite what Mary says, I *don't* think grex is doing particularly well
right now. The membership has halved over the past several years,
reliability has been a problem, and there's a general air of stagnation. I
was talking to another grexer last night who said about the system and
community that it was ``in its last throws. They won't survive.'' (No, it
wasn't anyone who's weighed in on this conversation.)
Is grex in immediate danger of shutting its doors? No, but is that the
metric by which one judges *health*? ``Well, they're not dead just yet, so
they're doing pretty good'' doesn't sound quite right to me. But I think
grex will die an assymptotic death. Sure, if a disk fails someone will go
change it. If there's a major financial catastrophe, someone will step in
and bail us out. The same core group of 20-30 people will keep grex running
for a long while, indeed. But, they'll more or less be by themselves as
other people leave and new people stop in, say hi once or twice, and
disappear because grex doesn't offer anything unique they can't get from
somewhere else (or they're just interested in running 30 copies of udp.pl or
attempting to send millions of spam messages...). So the community will
shrink to a point where it's the same people talking about the same things
in the same way over and over again...do you see where I'm going here?
I guess the *real* issue is what is the purpose of grex? If it's meant to
be a clubhouse for the founders and other principle members, then say so.
There's certainly nothing *wrong* with that; plenty of people do similar
things. And if that's the case, the rosy picture that Mary paints is
perfectly accurate. On the other hand, if it's meant to be something more,
then some things have got to change and the situation isn't as positive as
she makes it out to be.
That's my take.
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cross
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response 290 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:15 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #288; Technical savvy isn't the same as desire or will.
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keesan
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response 291 of 480:
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Dec 14 15:57 UTC 2006 |
The conferences are just as busy as they ever were, and grex has been up far
more of the time than it used to be, but newuser is not working, which seems
like the most urgent problem right now, not new hardware. Followed by a
working spam filter for people who don't want to copy mine (or don't know how
to copy anything), and getting rid of unused mail accounts so the mail
partition does not keep filling up. What do other people think is most
important?
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kingjon
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response 292 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:09 UTC 2006 |
As I recall, newuser was removed as a stopgap measure to keep the people who
were running the denial of service attacks from coming back until some solution
to that problem had been hammered out. I hope this doesn't become like the
"Offsite mailing privileges for new user accounts are temporarily restricted"
(from the MOTD, dated January 11).
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keesan
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response 293 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:24 UTC 2006 |
Is anyone currently working on newuser? If not, would Cross like to
volunteer?
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cross
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response 294 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:25 UTC 2006 |
Even if I volunteered (like I volunteered to work on email) I'm not sure it
would do much good.
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cross
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response 295 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:28 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #291; With respect to the conferences, they're just as busy as ever
with the same 20 or 30 people who regularly post to them. Like I said, if
that's what people want, then just say that. There's nothing wrong with grex
being a playground for those who put time and effort into it. But if that's
the case, then why is newuser or the spam problem urgent?
Sindi, why do *you* think that the newuser issue is the most urgent problem?
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spooked
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response 296 of 480:
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Dec 14 16:50 UTC 2006 |
Dan, you are a clever person and do not need this bullshit in your life.
Do yourself a favour and take your first-rate services and vision to
better places.
The following quote appropriately summaries my account of the
increasing (over time) problems with Grex staff (from nearly 10 years
first-hand observation inside the spectre):
'Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
decide everything.' (Josef Stalin)
Just like in a totalitarian state, very little gets done. And, what is
actually done is rarely in the best interests of the people the leader/s
purport to be interested in. Furthermore, there is so much indoctrination
that even once good people are unawares of their blindness, foolishness,
and lies.
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rcurl
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response 297 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:23 UTC 2006 |
(Newusers are the lifeblood of the system?)
Cross asked "I guess the *real* issue is what is the purpose of grex?"
According to the Articles (Coop, Item 1):
"The Corporation is organized for such charitable and educational purposes
as may qualify it for exemption from the federal income tax under Section
501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended (or the
corresponding provisions of any future United States internal revenue
law.) More specifically, such purposes include, but are not limited to,
the advancement of public education and scientific endeavor through
interaction with computers, and humans via computers, using computer
conferencing. Further purposes include the exchange of scientific and
technical information about the various aspects of computer science, such
as operating systems, computer networks, and computer programming."
Is Grex doing those things and, if so, how well and if not well, what
should it do to meet those purposes?
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slynne
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response 298 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:28 UTC 2006 |
I think that it is likely that Grex will die off sometime in the
future. I like all the discussion in the conferences here and that is
my main reason for being here. I would love it if we could get some new
users or even some former old users to check in. Certainly, if we dont
get some new people online, we will die off.
But I am not entirely sure of how to do that. I occasionally speak to
people who used to be active on Grex and/or Mnet and they give all
kinds of reasons for why they no longer log on here. Most of the things
mentioned to me are things completely outside of Grex's control.
None of that has anything to do with the current staff issues except
that if we dont get newuser up and running, we are essentially making
the death happen faster. I havent talked to a single person who doesnt
understand that though.
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cross
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response 299 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:43 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #296; Oh, I don't know. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just
yet. But to each their own.
Regarding #297; I suspect that in a narrowly defined sense, grex is doing
that. There are a core group of 20 to 30 users who, as I said, will keep
grex alive. But I really think that claiming the grex is furthering the
public knowledge or advancing science are stretching reality at best. Grex
is quickly becoming a provencial backwater; are there people doing things
*for* grex? Sure. But what is grex doing *for* anyone else? I think that
the criticisms that grex has no real vision are perfectly valid.
The articles of incorporation articulate a purpose, but it's rather vague.
I guess what I'm asking is narrower in focus; where I ask what is the
purpose of grex, feel free to substitute, what is the *character* of grex?
Is it a system that is all-inclusive, really making an effort to be relevant
on the modern Internet, or a playground for that same 20 or 30 users who
have been here all along? The answer to that question really clarifies
where the priorities for the system lie. If it's the former, then there are
some significant problems that need to be addressed; in particular, if new
users are really the lifeblood of the system, then how come there isn't more
of an effort to encourage them to become involved? If the latter, then I'll
agree with Mary Remmers that everything is peachy, but don't be surprised
that there aren't a lot of people interested in playing.
I think that a lot of the grex population really, truly, strongly believes
in grex, which is great, but some of them also aren't willing to look at
themselves to see if maybe, just maybe, there isn't a cultural problem on
the system. Sometimes, belief can be so firm that one blinds oneself to
other realities, even though someone is screaming at them that things aren't
the way they see them. It seems to me that any attempt to say otherwise is
interpreted as a viscious attack against something they hold dear. There's
little objectivity around here, and I think that is a problem that's just
going to grow over time.
Let me rephrase the problem in a totally different way: has anyone stopped
to think about why there aren't more new users who become part of the
community? You'd think as the total number of Internet users increases,
you'd see - perhaps not a corresponding increase - but certainly not a
decrease of new users. So why has membership decreased? And why can't
people even consider that maybe it's a problem with the way the grex
community operates?
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cross
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response 300 of 480:
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Dec 14 17:50 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #298; Is there any one reason that pops up more frequently than
another?
You know, look at SDF: it's a *lot* more successful than grex. And part of
that is that they do a *really* good job of being more inclusive of the
community. They even solicit users to submit tracks of their bands' music
for some sort of comp CD!
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tod
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response 301 of 480:
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Dec 14 18:27 UTC 2006 |
I think Mike outlined the major problems very well in #282
I pretty much withdrew from the Board election after seeing the same
"status-quo" types throwing their hats in to get re-elected (of which I'm sure
they will.) I don't see the point in trying to help or influence an
organization that doesn't want it. Its laughable that Mary is content with
the "somebody who doesn't have much but is a local will always be around to
fix Grex" because that is highly elitist and typical of Grex's "problem" in
general. (Its a diplomatic way of saying: Thanks for offering but we don't
want any help.) One of these days, Grex will need to take the Ann Arbor
training wheels off and learn how to operate with a virtual geographically
global staff else it will become defunct when all current staff finally find
a life off Grex.
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mary
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response 302 of 480:
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Dec 14 18:58 UTC 2006 |
Usually quote marks are used to repeat what someone actually said, not
what you imagine they meant. But I understand why you can't do that.
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tod
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response 303 of 480:
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Dec 14 20:39 UTC 2006 |
I'm unusual.
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slynne
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response 304 of 480:
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Dec 14 21:28 UTC 2006 |
resp:299 RE: "I think that the criticisms that grex has no real vision
are perfectly valid."
FWIW, I think those criticisms are valid too.
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cross
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response 305 of 480:
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Dec 14 22:19 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #302; So, is this your idea of ``encouraging words'' Mary? People
post honest criticisms of what they see to be problems and you post back
some snippy little comment like, ``But I understand why you can't do that.''
Do you really? Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us, please? I mean,
I've witnessed you do your own fair share of misinterpretation over the
years. Perhaps you could give others the benefit of the doubt once in a
while?
Is this your idea of being more inclusive, of building a better community?
Is this your evidence that grex is doing just fine? Because from where I
sit, that sort of attitude reinforces my point that there is a serious
problem. If Todd misinterpreted you, why not go ahead and correct his
misinterpretation, instead of just sniping or poking with little barbs?
Do you have something to lose otherwise?
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tod
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response 306 of 480:
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Dec 14 22:23 UTC 2006 |
I've got no problem with people pointing out my slaughter of punctuation.
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cross
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response 307 of 480:
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Dec 14 22:28 UTC 2006 |
You quotation-killer! I spit at you!
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tod
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response 308 of 480:
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Dec 14 22:29 UTC 2006 |
See, spitting at me is exactly what the staff does not need on its "TEAM."
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mary
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response 309 of 480:
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Dec 14 23:12 UTC 2006 |
First off Dan, you need to calm down. Rage isn't healthy.
Todd has me saying something I wouldn't have said. Before I start
correcting folks, in detail, I think I'm going to wait just a little
longer until someone has me saying, in quotes, that Grex is perfect just
the way it is.
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tod
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response 310 of 480:
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Dec 14 23:17 UTC 2006 |
"Al Gore invented the Internet"
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