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Grex > Coop13 > #76: member initiative: do not restore two items | |
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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 357 responses total. |
gelinas
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response 261 of 357:
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Jan 23 23:09 UTC 2004 |
My argument on ownership is NOT based on past practice or policy. It is not
a justification for the removal of the items. My argument on ownership is
an argument for taking a specific action NOW: _not_ restoring jep's items.
It is also an argument for not restoring Valerie's items.
I argued in favour of closing the 'scribble' log because I believe that
individuals have the right to stop 'publishing' their words. That does
not mean that others do not have a similar right over those words.
I argue that the only additional person who has that right is the person
who entered the item.
In the course of our lives, we often discover that our expectations
were mistaken. That doesn't mean that the world will change to meet
our expectations. Instead, our expectatins change to match the world.
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gull
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response 262 of 357:
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Jan 23 23:39 UTC 2004 |
Re resp:260: "Just don't presnt a different face to the ACLU next time
it needs a plaintiff."
Poor choice of argument, in this case, for two reasons:
- jep strongly opposed Grex's involvement in the ACLU case. Making an
argument based on whether Grex would be useful to them in the future is
unlikely to fly with him.
- The ACLU has never particularly cared how honorable the people they
defend are. The extreme example of this is a case in Florida where the
ACLU is trying to protect Rush Limbaugh's medical records. Rush hates
the ACLU and everything they stand for but they're defending him anyway.
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cyklone
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response 263 of 357:
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Jan 23 23:42 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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cyklone
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response 264 of 357:
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Jan 23 23:56 UTC 2004 |
Re #261: And such a nice little fantasy world you've created. Just don't
pretend it has anything to do with free and uncensored speech.
Re #262: Jep's feelings about the ACLU are irrelevant to the issue of
whether or not grex's actual values are consistent with those of the ACLU.
Put a little differently, the ACLU would support jep's rights to free and
uncensored speech even if he was himself advocating censorship. The ACLU
would not support him (or, more precisely, Valerie) in actually censoring
others. Your "argument" is absurd on its face. Claiming, as gelinas does,
that the creator of an item becomes a co-owner of the words of another,
with a "trump veto" over the words of another, is equally twisted and
unsupportable. Just admit it: some of ya'll are grasping at straws to do a
personal favor for a favored grexer and cannot bear to admit that in doing
so you violate the whole notion of free and uncensored speech. Agora my
ass.
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tod
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response 265 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:11 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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gelinas
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response 266 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:30 UTC 2004 |
The "trump veto" is only available by removing _all_ of the item, not
just the words of one other user. The item author cannot say, "gelinas
cannot participate in my item" nor "gelinas' response X must be removed."
I really won't mind if my argument does not prevail, cyklone. I think it
*should*, but I understand that others don't.
And we simply disagree on the ownership of items. This disagreement does
not mean that one of us is more supportive "free speech" or more against
"censorship." We _may_ have different ideas of what those terms mean,
though.
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jp2
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response 267 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:31 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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jp2
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response 268 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:33 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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jaklumen
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response 269 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:57 UTC 2004 |
resp:249 I found the key word was "tend to"-- Friend of the Court also
tends to favor the parent who earns more money-- else a friend of mine
would easily have custody of her kids. (She's rather poor)
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gelinas
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response 270 of 357:
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Jan 24 00:57 UTC 2004 |
No, it might be clear from Picospan that in Marcus' opinion the item
author is not the owner, but that is as far as the evidence will take you.
No, the item author has no right to republish your words. The limit of
their rights in your words is to remove the item they enter. If you
decide to republish your words in a different item, the original item
author has no rights in them, except in the item he created.
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dbunker
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response 271 of 357:
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Jan 24 01:39 UTC 2004 |
Methinks that cyklone protests way too much. I think he's trying very hard
to make this discussion all about free speech and censorship because he feels
guilty about his role in hurting Valerie enough that she wanted to leave.
He can't face up to his guilt, so he makes out like he's fighting the
righteous good fight.
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cyklone
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response 272 of 357:
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Jan 24 03:29 UTC 2004 |
LOL! Is that you polyboy? FWIW, I feel no guilt or responsibility for
valeries "hurt" or for her abuse of grex.
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cyklone
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response 273 of 357:
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Jan 24 03:42 UTC 2004 |
Re #266: So by your logic a "trump veto" over one person is not OK but a trump
veto over everyone is. What an interesting planet you inhabit. Please try
again with earth logic. It is fundamental abuse of the system to allow anyone
to have a trump over the words of one person. It is even more offensive to
have a trump over an entire group of people for the very simple reason that
you are multiplying an abuse of one into an abuse of many.
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gelinas
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response 274 of 357:
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Jan 24 04:05 UTC 2004 |
When you actually have something logical to say, please say it.
So far, it has been emotional polemic.
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naftee
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response 275 of 357:
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Jan 24 04:40 UTC 2004 |
Yeah, cyklone is an emotional bad-boy. He is presenting raw facts and
refuting arguments, causing GreXers to get emotionally mad. I say we
emotionally smack-down his account.
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gelinas
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response 276 of 357:
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Jan 24 04:52 UTC 2004 |
Actually, he is not presenting "raw facts"; he issimply making claims, with
no support.
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dah
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response 277 of 357:
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Jan 24 05:01 UTC 2004 |
What would you know about raw facts?
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cyklone
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response 278 of 357:
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Jan 24 14:28 UTC 2004 |
Re #276: It seems to me that you are the one who has failed to support your
claims. Tell me where I have failed to support mine.
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gelinas
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response 279 of 357:
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Jan 24 17:33 UTC 2004 |
Neither of us have been very good about backing up our claims. So:
Words have meaning only in context.
The context for a response is provided by the item author.
When the context is removed, the response should also be removed.
The item author is free to remove the context at any time.
Therefore, the item author should remove any responses at the same
time that he removes the item.
"Words have meaning only in context."
This is why "out of context quotes" are generally condemned in
news reports, scholarly articles and informal discourse.
The occasional "out of context quotes" item in agora exemplifies
the necessity of context for meaning.
The many uses of "Good day" or "Good morning", as shown in the
opening chapter of _The Hobbit_, are dependent upon
context.
"The context for a response is provided by the item author."
The item text establishes the basis for discussion.
The item itself provides the place for discussion.
"When the context is removed, the response should also be removed."
Follows from the warped meaning of out-of-context quotes.
"The item author is free to remove the context at any time."
Well established by past practice: item authors can "scribble"
the text of the item, and several have done so.
Thus, to prevent the deliberation distortion of other's meaning, any
responses should be removed when the item text is removed.
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jp2
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response 280 of 357:
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Jan 24 17:44 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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gelinas
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response 281 of 357:
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Jan 24 17:51 UTC 2004 |
You think deliberately warping the meaning is acceptable?
Or you disagree that removing the context warps the meaning?
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jp2
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response 282 of 357:
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Jan 24 18:09 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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gelinas
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response 283 of 357:
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Jan 24 18:23 UTC 2004 |
So you disagree with the conclusion but cannnot refute it.
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jp2
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response 284 of 357:
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Jan 24 18:31 UTC 2004 |
This response has been erased.
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naftee
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response 285 of 357:
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Jan 24 18:57 UTC 2004 |
Yeah response 282 shows clearly that the users should not be allowed to
arbitrarily delete content of other users, within reasonable bounds, of
course.
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