response 27 of 176:

Apr 20 15:14 UTC 2001

M-Net had 4 available inbound lines at first when they set up with 
WWNet, but reduced them recently.

re #22: M-Net's needs are different primarily *because* it's financial 
situation is different.  There was a time when M-Net had a lot of cash, 
but that changed through unnecessarily spending some of it, and losing 
contributions (partly as a result of bad spending), and for a lot of 
other reasons.  Fortunately for Grex, none of these things can ever 
happen *here* and so Grex doesn't need to look at the possibility of 
cutting it's expenses by 50-75% while dramatically improving it's 
Internet connectivity.

By the way, log into M-Net and Grex in two separate windows, using their 
GUI interfaces, and do a conference listing sometime to compare speeds. 
You can do quite a lot of conferencing on M-Net while you're waiting for 
Grex to just list the items in a conference.  Try entering an item or 
response on Grex, and see how many responses or items you can get 
entered on M-Net while you're waiting for Grex to save one.

Grex's Backtalk interface is much nicer than WebYAPP.  It'd probably be 
really nice if it ran as quickly.

response 29 of 176:

Apr 20 15:49 UTC 2001

Grex's Pumpkin rent is more than that.  I forget how much more.  It's also
important to consider power costs, which are sometimes included in colocation
arrangemenets.

response 33 of 176:

Apr 21 03:39 UTC 2001

Re #31: Newer doesn't always equal better, though.  How does MNet's user 
load compare to Grex's?  In my admittedly limited experience, newer 
Intel PC-class hardware doesn't quite measure up to older Sun 
server-class hardware when it comes to handling lots of users.  The 
Intel boxes just don't seem to handle multiple processes nearly as 
well, and the hardware seems to be flimsier and more prone to 
deterioration as well.  There's more to system speed than how fast the 
clock runs.

response 35 of 176:

Apr 21 03:47 UTC 2001

I just think it'd be a major expense for Grex to replace the current 
hardware with something that'd be both faster and more reliable.  A lot 
of PC hardware (especially hard disk drives) is cheaply made for the 
desktop market and would fail quickly under the kind of load Grex would 
put on it.  You're talking server-class multiprocessor stuff, 
realistically, I would think, and that doesn't come cheap.

response 37 of 176:

Apr 21 08:36 UTC 2001

resp:34

(I wouldn't go so far as to say that you're that much aware of what's
going on re: M-Net than I am.  having kept myself abreast of the system
ever since the Salcedo incident, I'm one of the few people you *can't*
accuse of not being familiar with both M-Net and Grex.  plus, I've held
a "position of responsibility" on M-Net more recently than you have.)

(if you think my comment about M-Net not having much worth reading was 
meant to offend you, so be it.  the fact is that M-Net has newer 
hardware, a faster net connection, and more disk space, all for naught.
it's ready for a big boom that isn't likely to happen.)

(seriously, why bother pointing out M-Net?  *Chinet* [which has been
around even longer than any permutation of M-Net has] has newer hardware
than M-Net does, will have its own T-1 in a matter of days, and has
unreasonable amounts of disk space [mostly used for games].  it also has
maybe 12 users.  I can post an item or enter a response there very
quickly; the wait is in a response from someone else.)

(here's my theory:  newer hardware, faster net connections, and oodles of
disk space have *zilch* to do with building a community.  all that speed
is only good for allowing inane users to post inane responses insanely
fast.  seriously, what's the speed supposed to be used for?  people can
only read and type so fast.  whether you're connected to Grex by phone or
by port, it's usually at the speed of type or faster.  the only difference
is when using Backtalk, and that's mostly in retrieval, and *still* as
fast as any database I use on the internet.  ever tried to do a search on
cnnsi.com?)

(I'm reminded of janc's comments on why he doesn't speed when he travels:
at some point, the increase in speed isn't worth the time gained.  think
of it as diminishing returns.)

(you're patently wrong about the ease of replacing hardware.  last I
checked, Grex had plenty of spare CPUs laying around the Pumpkin, ready 
to go.  M-Net, as last summer showed, obviously doesn't.  which would
be cheaper to replace, again?)

(I'd also be curious to see how well M-Net's current set-up might handle
the sort of traffic Grex sees on a regular basis.  I'm unlikely to see
that experiment anytime soon, as M-Net has pissed away its userbase and
seems xenophobic about expanding it.  [*cough*allocatedtelnetports*cough]
that's fine by me.  while M-Net continues to attract users that detract
from the system, I'm happy to suffer through a few thousand script-kiddies
if it means I'll see a few more users on a regular basis.  it weren't for
Chinet, M-Net could be the fastest system no one uses.) 

(I'm all for a discussion of expenses and cost-saving measures, but I'd
hate to see it focus on "improving" a resource that won't necessarily
produce a benefit.)

response 41 of 176:

Apr 21 23:53 UTC 2001

Grex's network connectivity shouldn't be measurably worse than M-Net's.  DSL
connections are pretty low latency, and WWNet and Voyager both have
connectivity to the rest of the Net that's decent but could use some
improvement.  I think Voyager's is somewhat better than WWNet's at the moment.
Traceroutes from M-Net to Grex currently go through New York, so neither of
them is buying connectivity from providers that have very good peering with
eachother.  If M-Net's connectivity is considerably better than Grex, it's
more likely because Grex's DSL line is filling up than anything else.

response 43 of 176:

Apr 26 14:02 UTC 2001

Using Backtalk, it does take a very long time (30-60 seconds) to go from 
one item to the next, or to post a response or a new item.  Resp #37 
refers to diminishing returns for speed.  I start doing something on 
Grex every day which takes too long, and so I go to do something else, 
and then the thing I was doing doesn't get done.  This isn't a trivial 
problem, and I don't think it's an unsolvable one.

response 45 of 176:

Apr 27 00:32 UTC 2001

resp:44

(you're joking, right?)

response 47 of 176:

Apr 27 02:38 UTC 2001

It doesn't normally take 30 seconds for me to move from one item to 
another in Backtalk.  The speed of web browsing on Grex is about what 
I've come to expect from other sites.  Maybe I'm just too used to my 
28.8 modem connection, and when I've had more bandwidth for a while I'll 
start to get annoyed with sites that don't load instantaneously.

response 49 of 176:

Apr 27 12:55 UTC 2001

resp:46

(from Arbornet's "support" command):


                           Patron       Member       Guest

Inbound telnet ports        64           56     48 from Michigan,
                                                  28 otherwise


(again, you're joking, right?)