response 251 of 406:

Oct 21 03:14 UTC 2000

Re #249: Why?  Being ancient doesn't mean it's eternal.  Farming has changed
a *lot* over the years; it's gone from being entirely hand work, to
involving animal labor, to being mechanized.  Corporate factory farms are
just the next step in this progression.  You can pine for the good old days
all you want, but it won't bring back the mom-and-pop 40-acre farms most
people think of as family farms.  I don't know if it's really the
government's job to support anachronisms.

response 253 of 406:

Oct 21 22:43 UTC 2000

Now, that last paragraph is just dopey. If people don't eat, corporate farms
don't make any money, either.

response 255 of 406:

Oct 22 00:43 UTC 2000

  I was listening to a news program the other day and heard a really
  appalling statistic that I simply couldn't believe.  Assuming I wasn't
  hallucinating, the claim was that something like 40% of US farm revenue
  now comes from federal subsidies.

  I rather doubt that that's the case, but does anyone have a clear idea
  just how big a share of the farm economy comes from subsidies?

response 257 of 406:

Oct 22 16:08 UTC 2000

r254.

i have reconsidered my feelings on the subject.

you are correct, their way of life is obsolete.

corporatise all family farms asap, round up those
poor misguided people and put them in some
sort of urban re-education camp until they figure
out that *chicken comes from the supermarket*

i now trust corporate farms with all of my heart.

wanna go hang out at a pig farm sometime, buckaroo?

response 259 of 406:

Oct 22 21:14 UTC 2000

they're not?

response 261 of 406:

Oct 23 13:30 UTC 2000

I live in a farming area.  My father in law is a small time, part-time 
farmer.  I rent a house from a somewhat larger farmer (~500 acres), was 
watching another farmer on about that scale combine his beans yesterday, 
and know several other farmers, some with a couple of thousand acres.

Farming can be a lucrative occupation, but it's a risky lifestyle.  
Farmers make money about 3 years in 5.  There are a lot of variables.  A 
big storm can wipe out a year's crop, bad weather can do you in, or in a 
year like this one -- which was a nearly ideal growing season -- since 
it's ideal for everyone, there's a lot of crops around, and so prices 
are down.  When you make money, you make payments and do maintenance on 
a lot of expensive machinery, and when you don't make money, you still 
have to have the equipment and keep it up.  You pay taxes on your 
farmland -- which, if it's in or near Washtenaw County, is likely to be 
worth a lot of money because you could sell it to a developer.

I have a lot of sympathy for farmers.  It's a hard lifestyle, but it 
seems to me to be necessary.  

response 263 of 406:

Oct 23 16:24 UTC 2000

A front-page story in today's Washington Post says that Nader now has the 
possibility of tipping as many as six states to Bush: Oregon, Washington,
Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maine, and Michigan.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58318-2000Oct22.html
    (note the difference between zeros and Oh in 2000 Oct...)

response 265 of 406:

Oct 23 17:43 UTC 2000

(The verification of these is left as an exercise to the student...)

Why let Mr. Potatoe Heade, aka former Vice Presidente Danne Quayle, 
have all the fun?!  :-)


Subject: Some tidbits from Al Gore

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."  - Al Gore

"Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
 - Vice President Al Gore

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit... Mars is
 somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important.
 We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, & water.
 If there is water, that means there is oxygen.  
 If oxygen, that means we can breathe."  -  Vice President Al Gore, 8/11/94

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history.
 I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century.
 I didn't live in this century." - Vice President Al Gore, 9/15/95

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom
 and democracy-but that could change." - Vice President Al Gore, 5/22/98

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president,
 & that one word is, 'to be prepared'." -- Vice President Al Gore, 12/6/93

"I have made good judgments in the past. 
 I have made good judgments in the future." - Vice President Al Gore

"The future will be better tomorrow."  - Vice President Al Gore

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions
 and have a tremendous impact on history."  - Vice President Al Gore

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." 
- Vice President Al Gore to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO.
 We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
- Vice President Al Gore

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Democrat." - Vice President Al Gore

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
- Vice President Al Gore

"When I have been asked who caused the riots and the killing in L.A.,
 my answer has been direct & simple: Who is to blame for the riots? 
 The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings?  
 The killers are to blame."  -  Al Gore

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."
- Vice President Al Gore, 5/20/96

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
- Vice President Al Gore, 9/22/97

"For NASA, space is still a high priority." - Vice President Al Gore, 9/5/93

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."
- Vice President Al Gore, 9/18/95

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment.
 It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."  
- Vice President Al Gore

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."
- Vice President Al Gore


Subject: Bush fer prezidant?

English Patient, October 

Oct. 10: George W. Bush says Al Gore's tax plan would "require numerous
IRA agents" - apparently meaning Internal Revenue Service (IRS) agents. 

English Patient, September 

Sept. 28: In a speech attacking Gore's economic plan, Bush meant to challenge
the vice president to pledge he would not raise taxes on Social Security, 
as Bush has already done. Instead, Bush fell victim to a double negative.
"While I have ruled out new, no new Social Security taxes, my opponent hasn't."


Sept. 26: At a town hall-style event in Redwood City, Calif., Bush was asked 
by an audience member if he would have an "evenhanded" policy when dealing
with the Middle East. Bush reassured the potential voter,
"I will have a foreign-handed policy." 

Sept. 25: Asked about the environment, Bush noted if you own land,
you would be the one "making sure that land is pristine and functionable."
Later in the day, campaigning in the Pacific Northwest, he inadvertently
granted statehood to Washington D.C. He said, "The people who care more
about that land, are the hardworking farmers and ranchers of your part of 
the state of Washington D.C." 

Sept. 14: Campaigning at a drugstore, Bush was asked by a voter if perhaps
he had "a dyslexia issue," as had been speculated in Vanity Fair magazine
by writer Gail Sheehy. Bush replied, "The woman who wrote that I had dyslexia,
I never interviewed her." 

Sept. 12: Fending off questions from reporters on a Republican attack ad that
was criticized for possibly containing hidden messages, Bush said no fewer 
than four times that there were no "subliminable messages" in the ad. 

English Patient Archives 

April: Trying to praise a teacher, Bush said, "What easy is when you see
excellence to herald excellence."
Later, discussing the promise of volunteerism, Bush
profoundly noted, "The benefits of helping somebody is beneficial."

March: Talking about the need to improve the military, Bush vowed that as
president, he would "use our technology to enhance uncertainty abroad." 
Speaking to a crowd filled with people involved in agriculture,
Bush declared, "I understand agriculture, I have a vision ... we ought to be
the country feeding faces all across the world."
Also this month, Bush said, "I'm going to be a president who hails success
as well as failure." 

February: "If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism, polls,
and principles, come join this campaign," Bush urged South Carolinians.
Speaking about the need to improve relations with Latin America, Bush said,
"It's going to require a president who understands it's in our strategic 
interests to have a peaceful and economically vile hemisphere."
Explaining his tax cut, Bush said, "We oughtta make the pie higher." 

Reading from prepared speeches, Bush has referred to "peacekeeper" as
"pacemaker" and argued that America "cannot let terrorists and rogue nations
hold this nation "hostile" rather than "hostage."

In South Carolina, Bush got a little philosophical with supporters:
"Rarely is the question asked, Is our children learning?"

Debating John McCain, Bush made this point: 
"I think we agree, the past is over." 
He then complained the Arizona senator "can't take the high horse and then
claim the low road."
     
During a speach after the first debate.    
Sounding a bit like his dad, he tried to say "tariffs and barriers"
but came out with "terriers."
One from G. Bush Sr.

When G. Bush Sr. assumed leadership of the Republican Party, he reflected
on his tenure as Ronald Reagan's vice president, saying, 
"We have had triumphs, we have made mistakes, we have had sex."
Bush meant to say, "setbacks." 

response 267 of 406:

Oct 23 18:22 UTC 2000

While I think that farming is important and I would support zoning land 
in such a way that it would become unattractive to developers so that 
there will always be a lot of land available for farming, I have no 
great attachment to the small family farm. I also think it is futile to 
try to buck market forces that probably will remain constant. There is 
no way for the small time farmer to escape the fact that there are 
economies of scale with big farms. As a consumer, I totally support big 
factory farms. I know this because I vote with my wallet at the grocery 
store. I tend to buy the food that is cheapest. Anyone else who lets 
price guide them in the grocery store is also supporting big factory 
farms. If you dont like this, consider shopping at the Food Coop 
exclusively. 
 

I am in favor on raising the limit on inheritance taxes. I think that it 
makes sense for folks to want to leave their wealth to thier kids and I 
do think it is shame for a family to lose land or a business to which 
they have sentimental attachments. 

response 269 of 406:

Oct 23 18:44 UTC 2000

Hey, why not replace those ChemLawn companies with suburban farming services?
The farmers get free land (somebody else pays property taxes), the homeowners
get nearly free maintenance of at least part of their huge lots, and some
fresh produce as well.

response 271 of 406:

Oct 23 21:12 UTC 2000

        It seems to me rather strange to tax the inheiratance of a property
the same regardless of whether it appreciates or depreciates or is actually
profitable.

response 273 of 406:

Oct 24 04:31 UTC 2000

Re #240:  "A government that's big enough to give you all you want,
is big enough to take all you have."  I want a government that doesn't
throw its weight around, because I know who gets crushed when it does -
the little guy, AKA me.  Having some Constitutional limit on the
amount of time/money the government can throw at the little guy
would keep attention on the big fish, instead of the people who
have no resources to fight back against government officials who
are malicious, capricious or just wrong.

Re #242 et seq:  I heard a POV today that challenges anyone
who really believes that the estate tax is a worthwhile force.
I just hope I can do justice to it.

Premise:  The increasingly "soulless", corporate, short-term
orientation of business is a direct result of the estate tax.

Argument:  The estate tax effectively forces the dispersion of any
large, unified economic force in a single generation.  (This
dispersion would usually happen anyway; look at the relative wealth
of the generations of Rockefellers and Kennedys, but stay with me.)
While a big business enterprise (like EDS) might grow under a
single head/owner and visionary, when that owner dies only a
fraction - 45%, at current tax rates - of the enterprise can be
passed on to the heirs.  While the egalitarians praise the fact
that 55% of the wealth goes to the government in the form of taxes
(allowing bigger budgets with the same income tax rates), the
*other* effect is to force the dispersal of ownership of the
remainder.  In any large enterprise (which will be incorporated),
this means that the business becomes publicly held.

Being a publicly-held corporation imposes fiduciary duties upon
the board and management.  Instead of being able to follow a vision,
they are effectively forced to pursue profits above all else.  This
is how the next quarter's results come to dominate the stock price
and thus the company's planning, and any crank with a lawyer can sue
if the numbers come in below projections.  The vision gets buried
under legal ass-covering, and the organization becomes one more
soulless corporation pursuing the almighty dollar.  That's the *law*.

Suppose for a moment that we had no estate tax.  We'd allow large
business enteprises built by one visionary to be passed, whole, to
the ownership, control *and responsibility* of the heirs - several,
like the infamously-squabbling Dart family, or just one.  If the
original visionary chose badly, the organization would lose its way
or get sold as shares to become just another corporation (and the
dispersion of wealth happens anyway).  But suppose that the visionary
chose a successor well.

A closely-held business does not have the same responsibilities as a
public corporation.  It can go after any lawful goals the owners like.
It can forego immediate profit for social responsibility, ultra-long-term
payoffs, or anything else.  Instead of having a bunch of MBA's at the
helm, advised by a legal staff, it can have one person with one idea.
Someone with the capital to actually do something whether or not the
other major economic force of similar size, the government, thinks it's
worthwhile.

Think of the things that aren't even being pursued because they require
too much capital for small business, won't pay off soon enough for corporate
business, and can't attract the political support for government.  That's
what has been killed by the estate tax.

Is that what you wanted to happen when you argued for it?