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Grex > Coop6 > #96: A New Sympathy; I need help. | |
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| 25 new of 127 responses total. |
ajax
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response 25 of 127:
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Feb 6 07:30 UTC 1995 |
Yeah, but I still say sidhe should be allowed to try it - otherwise we're
censoring his censorship!! Allowing a dictator a fiefdom in which to
censor others is the ultimate in open, tolerant systems! :-)
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carson
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response 26 of 127:
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Feb 6 21:31 UTC 1995 |
re #17: instead of bitching, why don't *you* propose it? go ahead,
write up a proposal, let it be discussed for two weeks, and
then we'll vote on it. It's not like you need a specific
number of people to agree with you or anything like that.
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gerund
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response 27 of 127:
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Feb 7 04:19 UTC 1995 |
Carson. honey.
I'm not bitching.
I'm not going to propose it because I don't agree with it.
All I've been saying is I've haerd a lot of OTHERS say they think
SOME censorship is needed. Personally, while I used to find
certain things objectionable I no longer think they matter.
Making a fuss seems to cause more problems than openness.
I'm not particularly sure what's up Carson, but if something is
upsetting you about me, perhaps you should mail me.
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andyv
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response 28 of 127:
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Feb 7 11:43 UTC 1995 |
Ajax, you should put the censor the censor expample in paradox cf ;-)
I don't see the discussion as bitching. Why not just propose the cf and
see what happens.
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remmers
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response 29 of 127:
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Feb 7 11:54 UTC 1995 |
It's been proposed. At this point there are technical obstacles to
setting it up the way sidhe wants.
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sidhe
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response 30 of 127:
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Feb 7 15:01 UTC 1995 |
Hm. Facinating range of responses, here. Raven, if you wouldn't want to
participate, you wouldn't have to. I'm not calling for control of all Pic-
Span, you know, but your reaction seems to be implying just that.
Listen, all I know is that. in mail, popcorn said to go ahead.
If staff is put in a quandry over this, then they need to discuss it, and
get back to me on it, but QUIT SAYING ONE THING, and then reversing it!
If I had to plan my day around the decision making here, I'd never
accomplish anything!
Raven, one last thing. I'm not even calling for a PicoSpan cf that
would allow this.. I really don't see what your objection is. As opposed
to jumping up and down over what you see as an Orwellian Doomsday cf,
perhaps you could enlighten us as to *why* this is a bad idea, not just
an "I say so". I've repeatedly given my reasons for why I would need
what I ask for.. what are yours for needing this to not even *exist*?
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remmers
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response 31 of 127:
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Feb 7 15:23 UTC 1995 |
Um, I don't follow. How is staff "saying one thing, and then reversing
it"?
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popcorn
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response 32 of 127:
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Feb 7 15:28 UTC 1995 |
I think sidhe is referring to the fact that I told him it was OK if he sets
up a non-Picospan conference in his own directory, while in #3 STeve asked
if we should encourage/ignore/discourage having non-Picospan conferences here.
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andyv
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response 33 of 127:
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Feb 7 17:08 UTC 1995 |
This is the place to voice opinions, isn't it sidhe? They help me consider
different points of view. I'm enjoying the exchange.
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sidhe
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response 34 of 127:
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Feb 7 19:06 UTC 1995 |
No, that's fine. But, when I get told one thing via mail, and then
told another on here, reversing that first piece of info, it gets
annoying! Exchanges are wonderful; I'd just like to be able to believe
a supposedly "final word" when I hear it. This item was set up under the
permission to go ahead with a non-PicoSpan cf. Once a few responses came
in, though, I found other staff members <annoyingly enough> wanting to
debate the issue, when i had already begun making plans on making the
non-PicoSpan Sympathy. THAT'S what I found annoying!
<Our word for the day is "annoying" boys and girls! Can you say
"annoying"?>
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steve
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response 35 of 127:
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Feb 7 19:55 UTC 1995 |
Unforunately, Grex speaks with many heads. The amazing part is, we
mostly don't step on each others tongues. ;-)
Since we have an open system here, and let people use any of the
programming utilities we have here, we get people who do all sorts
of things here. That I know of, we've never had anyone come up with
another conferencing system and get it running here. As things are
set up, I don't think we have a right to stop anyone who tries, unless
they're doing someting "bad", which goes for anything that one could do
here.
I understand about annoying. I hope that my voicing conderns about
this wasn't seen as a direct red light on this. I'll have to reread
what I wrote earlier to see if that is the case. If it is, I'm sorry.
So, what do others see as the positives / negatives of having YAPP
or something else here?
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remmers
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response 36 of 127:
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Feb 8 00:17 UTC 1995 |
Well -- to raise a technical point -- I'm sure that YAPP has to run
suid, and we've turned off the ability for users to run suid programs
from their directories.
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popcorn
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response 37 of 127:
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Feb 8 03:35 UTC 1995 |
[Re 35: Actually, I think someone did have some other conferencing
system or talker or *something* in his directory at some point.
I never tried accessing it and don't remember any useful details
such as the name of the program or the person who had it. It turned
up a lot during the big disk-space crunch before we got the new disk.]
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sidhe
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response 38 of 127:
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Feb 8 03:55 UTC 1995 |
<sigh> Unfortunately, stepping on each other's tongues is all you
seem to be doing at the moment.. this is all very confusing.
<sidhe has to wonder if this disorientation is at all like that
of a hangover, as it is giving him a splitting headache, and generally
making him very grouchy..>
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andyv
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response 39 of 127:
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Feb 8 03:57 UTC 1995 |
If it runs out of someone's directory, it can be disolved easily if it
bombs, right?
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steve
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response 40 of 127:
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Feb 8 04:38 UTC 1995 |
John raises an excellent point. We've made a midification to Grex
such that 'set uid' programs (entities that can 'become' someone else
while they are running) can't be run out of /home.
What this means is that someone can't run something like YAPP from
their home directory. We'd have to put it elsewhere, which we can do.
Christopher, are you serious about this? I guess you need to get
the bord to do this? What do others think? We need to put a priority
on it too, since it involves staff time.
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remmers
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response 41 of 127:
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Feb 8 12:08 UTC 1995 |
It would involve a significant amount of staff time, staff support on an
ongoing basis, and disk space. I don't see a strong demand from users
that they'd like this as an alternative to Picospan, so my opinion is
that we shouldn't do it at this time.
I've been thinking about this whole issue of fw censorship a bit more.
The fact that fw's can't censor in Grex's version of Picospan isn't
something that arose out of nowhere, or that the founders or some
staff people decided to do on their own. It was discussed at the first
open meeting Grex ever had (the Island Park Friends of Grex meeting in
1991), shortly before Grex opened to the public. The meeting was
attended by two or three dozen people. There was general concensus
among the attendees that they'd like to set things up so that fw's
couldn't censor routinely. So since it was a user decision, I'd be
reluctant to reverse it unless there's a clear mandate from the users
that they'd like to see it reversed. I don't see such a mandate here.
If it were a program that someone could run from their home directory
that didn't consume too much system resources, so that Grex wasn't
actually "supporting" it, that'd be okay with me. But there seem to be
some technical barriers to that.
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popcorn
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response 42 of 127:
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Feb 8 13:24 UTC 1995 |
Sidhe, this means that YAPP probably wouldn't work for you. But some
other software that didn't need to run "set uid" would still be a possibility.
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andyv
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response 43 of 127:
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Feb 9 02:38 UTC 1995 |
Why not try the cf out without censorship and see if it would really
be necessary?
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remmers
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response 44 of 127:
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Feb 9 11:50 UTC 1995 |
Re #42: Seems to me any conferencing program would need to be able
to let people modify files (e.g. add responses to items) that they
didn't have write permission for, i.e. would have to run "set uid".
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sidhe
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response 45 of 127:
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Feb 9 17:21 UTC 1995 |
Ahem.
Nevermind.'
This REALLY gets me. I have had multiple folks tell me they
support the sympathy concept, as I had it layed out. If you are
trying to say that it is simply *my* desire to have it as I had
planned, you are incorrect. If, on the other hand, you are saying
that, because staff would have to "officially" lend a hand, that you
want nothing to do with it, that is fine.. but SAY it! I need honesty,
here, but what i am seeing is skirting the issue. Can I do this, or no?
And, don't make excuses for it, just let me know what the decision is.
As for trying it non-caretaker style, I refuse to open up a
place where people are to come and open up their more tender sides,
but "try and take it like a man" if they are hurt while in this open
state!
Valerie, I call for the dissolvance of Sympathy of PicoSpan,
which you had set up prior to the resolution of this issue, as it was.
No, I don't wish to keep it there, in case I change my mind. I won't.
I see little difference in asking people to participate in *that*
incarnation of sympathy, and in asking people to use any other potentially-
damaging product. It is simply not right.
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andyv
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response 46 of 127:
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Feb 9 17:59 UTC 1995 |
Oh my gooooooodness ;-) Confrontational style sounds like the soaps.
Just an observation. Makes lively reading though.
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ajax
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response 47 of 127:
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Feb 9 18:43 UTC 1995 |
John said this would take significant "staff time, staff support on an
ongoing basis, and disk space." I think we have disk space, and if sidhe
owned the files, he could (and *should*) do the support.
Realistically, *if* sidhe got a working cf system, and all it needed was a
directory in which to run it with set uid permission, isn't that pretty easy?
Or is there more concern about the policy/precedent of setting it up?
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steve
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response 48 of 127:
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Feb 9 19:34 UTC 1995 |
As I've said before, this is a social/policy matter, not technical.
I would imagine that a couple of hours of one of us could build something,
unless it has problems porting to SunOS 4.1.1 .
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mdw
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response 49 of 127:
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Feb 10 00:17 UTC 1995 |
I've seen plenty of people saying "let sidhe have his experiment" but I
have not noticed many people saying that they actually think sidhe's
active censorship policy is a good idea. I'd guess most staff people
are reluctant to invest much time to support a facility (censoring) that
they find personally morally repugnant, and which few people on grex are
willing to actively advocate. I've seen censorship in action many
times. At best, it leads to a very closed autocratic group (ie, "sidhe
and his cronies"). At worst, it can lead to an explosive orgy of pain
and hurting (and no doubt sidhe will end up compared to hitler.) I
don't much like either, I don't believe it would be fair to either sidhe
or grex, and that's certainly why I'm reluctant.
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