response 28 of 138:

Jul 12 03:41 UTC 1997

Thanks for sending him thatm Rane. I was at his house and watched him open
that package at the most recent staff meeting. I know he has it and I'm sure
it will be helpful.

response 30 of 138:

Jul 18 01:48 UTC 1997

That's an amazing amount of work, Jan!  

I have one suggestion for things we do to educate the public:

We contribute to general literacy by providing incentive to and practice 
for young people (and not so young people) in using their reading and 
writing skills.  To us "word junkies" that may not seem obvious, but in 
these days of "Why Johhny Can't Read" and aflling SAT scores, it *is* 
important.

response 32 of 138:

Jul 19 18:12 UTC 1997

Hey, yeah -- me too!

<grin>

response 34 of 138:

Aug 19 17:16 UTC 1997

Hello I suggest the entry about world peace or racial/tension
between countries. IMO Grex help variopus people from 
several countries to contact each other and eliminate prejudice etc.
It can help in world trade/contacts. If they refuse it,
send me e-mail, I will pull some long string.
<< Rented >> Perhaps I must make some property investment in Michigan?
Best regards (AW)
PS: you can access Grex using old terminal/VT 100 connected to modem
and free/cheap local BBS that offer TELNET access.
You can still access FTP using Grex for non members using FTPmail.
I have program Oneup to collect all parts of the huge file.

response 38 of 138:

Aug 20 16:49 UTC 1997

That's a great suggestion, Amin!  Thanks -- and thanks, too, to Valerie 
and Dave for the refinements.

response 40 of 138:

Mar 23 06:32 UTC 1998

Unless I read the instructions incorrectly, we will have to pay a $150
application fee when we submit our 501(c)3 application.  Now that we have the
new computer up and running, we should consider having a fundraiser for that
money.

response 42 of 138:

Mar 23 07:02 UTC 1998

Not really.  It's pretty worthless at this point.

response 44 of 138:

Mar 30 17:10 UTC 1998

Okay, the agora people said to put any arguements against 501(c)3 here.
What I notice is that there is very little discussion here, and none for the
past 7 months.

Plesae do not go the 501(c)3 route.  Please.

Have you not looked in on m-net at all?

Have you not seen the item after item after item of agruement, not discussion,
from the so called experts stateing the M-net is not in compliance with
501(c)3 status?

The arguements from lawyers stateing the M-net board is gonna go to jail for
fraud because it isn't 501(c)3 compliant?

Are you ready for the kibbutzers and people with percieved injustices who will
use the 501(c)3 to create conflict on the system?

Do you want that kind of conflict here?

Are you ready for the inspection visits from IRS reps?

Are you ready to argue the contents of the letters telling you you are okay
with the IRS, but members don't believe it?

Have none of you even listened to the vehemence coming at the board from
disgruntled people who also visit here, adn who I am sure will not hesitate
to slam grex for taking 501(c)3 status?

Right now, I love grex because it is a haven from all that conflict.  You can
say you follow the rules for a 501(c)3, but you are free to do what you want.
M-nets board has to look at everything we do and make sure it doesn't violate
the 501(c)3 requirements.

And we do have to pay property taxes.  To the city government.

response 46 of 138:

Mar 30 20:16 UTC 1998

The biggest negative I see on 501(c)3 status is that we are so near Arbornet,
which is a bottomless source of mis-information and dis-information about
501(c)3 status.

I have not only looked very closely at Arbornet's internal 501(c)3 battle,
I participated in those discussions for something like their first year or
two, and know quite a lot about the history and roots.  In my opinion it is
95% Arbornet politics and 5% actual law.  There are hundreds of thousands of
501(c)3 organizations, and Arbornet is the only I've see work itself into such
a lather.  People who want to create conflict can always find an excuse. 
Arbornet's 501(c)3 status is not the source of Arbornet's in-fighting, it's
just one of the favorite weapons the participants use to bludgeon each other.

Arbornet's 501(c)3 status dates back from around 1986, when Arbornet was
probably the world's first and only group-owned, group-operated, non-profit
virtual community.  This was long before the merger with M-Net, and many of
the people involved had visions for what Arbornet would become that are quite
different from what Arbornet is today.  Thus, the contents of Arbornet's
original 501(c)3 application do not accurately describe what Arbornet/M-Net
is today.  This gap has been used by various users to attack the current
Arbornet leadership on the basis that they are not complying with 501(c)3.

I think it is pretty clear that Arbornet's 12-year-old 501(c)3 papers do not
accurately describe Arbornet's current operations.  There is nothing
surprising or shocking about this.  Most organizations apply for 501(c)3
status immediately after they are first organized, when the whole mission is
just a vision that the organizers hope to pursue.  I'm sure that very few such
organizations still exactly fit the orginal paperwork 12 years later.  I doubt
if the IRS would expect it to.

Though all organizations evolve, clearly to retain your 501(c)3 status you
must still fit the somewhat nebulous requirements for 501(c)3 corporations.
Thus the question is not so much whether Arbornet is doing what it said it
would do in its original 501(c)3 application, but whether what Arbornet is
doing now fits within the 501(c)3 regulations.

Parts of those regulations are very clear, other parts are not so clear.
Lawyers (with or without law degrees) can debate whether Arbornet is in
501(c)3 compliance until doomsday (a process that seems alive and well
on M-Net), but only the IRS can decide.

About two years ago I proposed on M-Net that they do the sensible thing -
ask the IRS if they are still in compliance.  That's the only real
way to resolve the question.  Interestingly the people who most criticize
Arbornet for non-compliance hated the idea most vehemently.  They said
the IRS would dun Arbornet for billions of dollars in back taxes, fine all
the board members, and throw them in jail.  So these people have the board
too afraid to even talk to the IRS.  I'm sure there is a procedure for
organizations to register changes in their mission with the IRS, and I'm
sure that procedure doesn't generally get too many board members executed,
and I'm sure that the ones who are executed don't suffer any worse than board
members on Arbornet already do at the hands of the good folks in the M-Net
policy conference.

Grex's situation is quite different.  Partly due to laziness, partly due the
horror stories from Arbornet, we have been absurdly late to file our 501(c)3
application.  This has some advantages though.  Our application will not
contain our best guess at what kinds of good things Cyberspace Communications
will do in the future.  Instead it will be a complete and honest description
of what we are doing now and have been doing for the last six years.

As long as we tell the truth in our application, which we have taken great
pains to do, then there will be no question of compliance unless Grex changes
in some major way.  For example, if we shut down the newuser program, or
started charging usage fees, we might have to re-examine our 501(c)3 status.
That would be fine - I'd argue that if we wanted to change Grex that
drastically we should shut down Cyberspace Communications and start a new
organization to pursue the new mission.  Grex has been through many changes
in its lifetime, but its basic mission has been very constant.  I have no
problem with the additional locking-in to that mission that would result from
501(c)3 status.  The basic principles of this system are not supposed to be
fluid.

>Are you ready for the inspection visits from IRS reps?

Sure.  Why not?  We have nothing to hide, and we fully recognize the right
of the IRS to review 501(c)3 organizations for compliance.  If problems arise,
we will be happy to work with the IRS to resolve them, either by changing what
we do or dropping the 501(c)3 status, whichever best fits our needs.  We are
not afraid of the IRS.  If we were afraid of the IRS, then we'd probably be
well advised to avoid 501(c)3, but we aren't.

My biggest concern with 501(c)3 is that some of those M-Net users who have
latched their egos to the Arbornet 501(c)3 debate may feel it is necessary
to carry that debate over here least Grex's taking a sensible approach to
the 501(c)3 question undermine the scariness of their favorite bludgeon.
I think that can be handled.


>And we do have to pay property taxes.  To the city government.

Part of our rent presumably goes to pay property taxes.  I wonder if we could
get a rebate on that, something like the Homestead Property Tax Credit, if
we were tax-exempt, or even as a poor non-profit?

response 48 of 138:

Mar 30 21:57 UTC 1998

Well, actually, Arbornet *did* get audited by the IRS, and we got visited
by an IRS rep as part of the audit in September '96.  He said what
M-Net was doing complied with what the IRS wanted.  We got written
confirmation of that last summer.  When I posted that confirmation,
most of the turmoil died down.
        All Bruce and I can do is warn you that *any* disgruntled
person can cause an argument about 501(c)(3) even if s/he has his
head wedged.  99.9% of the population is completely ignorant about
tax stuff, and self-appointed "experts" on either side play to that
ignorance.