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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 83 responses total. |
cmcgee
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response 25 of 83:
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May 7 14:18 UTC 1998 |
Some of us ardent Grex supporters have always use dial-in. The only telnet
access I have is if I'm at the library, and telnet in from their Internet
connection.
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remmers
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response 26 of 83:
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May 7 19:26 UTC 1998 |
I understand that we have to be fiscally responsible, but consider
this: Grex is on the verge of applying for 501(c)3 status as a
charitable organization. It seems to me that the dialin modem pool
service is one of the strongest claims to charitability that we
have. We are offering -- for FREE, to anyone in the local dialing
area who has a minimal computer and modem setup -- access to various
online services, including discussion forums, internet mail, and the
world wide web. And at its current level, this service in nearly
busy-signal free. This is a service available to most people only
if they pay a fee to an ISP, and we are truly performing a
charitable service to the community in making it available for
free.
So I'm uncomfortable with the sentiments I've seen expressed that
the dialins are a "luxury" that's too expensive to support. On the
contrary, they're at the heart of the kind of organization Grex is
trying to be, and is about to represent itself to the federal
government as being.
I'm with Valerie on this one. I'd prefer to see us focus on looking
for better funding for our current level of services, with a view to
increasing those services eventually, rather than getting into a
"cut services" mode of thinking.
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aruba
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response 27 of 83:
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May 7 19:53 UTC 1998 |
I don't think the phone lines are a luxury, but perhaps having phone lines
that go unused is. I would like nothing more than to fill up those lines, but
we simply haven't increased our membership significantly in a long time, while
our costs *have* increased. I hate being a broken record, but there it is. I
am uncomfortable living this close to the edge of our means.
I certainly don't advocate removing phone lines permanently; I think we
should make adjustments, as time goes by, to keep the number of lines in
synch with the demand. Right now it looks like we have more lines than
there is demand for.
If anyone wants to argue that we are (for some reason) on the verge of
increasing demand for dial-ins, then that would be a good reason to keep
extra lines.
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scott
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response 28 of 83:
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May 7 20:53 UTC 1998 |
Well, I need to get with Mike (nephi) about tweaking our Centrex trunk hunting
to make things a bit clearer from the Groupie stats.
Until we get that straigtened out, I'd say that we could definitely cut one
line immediately with no loss of service beyond maybe a couple times a week.
The stats from fixwait log indicate we aren't even using 11 of our 13 lines.
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rcurl
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response 29 of 83:
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May 8 05:42 UTC 1998 |
Re #27: we haven't really *tried* to increase our membership significantly
- also in a long time. The neglect of our dialin lines could be attributed
to the lack of our local membership efforts. I agree with remmers - it is
a public resource - and WE have to make that resource more widely known.
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scg
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response 30 of 83:
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May 8 06:16 UTC 1998 |
I will submit, again, that dial-up lines are rapily becoming obsolete. Yes,
there are still some people without Internet access, and it is good to have
some dial-up lines for them, but to expect our dial-up usage to grow rather
than shrink would be foolish.
Dial-up lines are a very expensive way of providing access. If people are
choosing other ways of connecting, that's something we should be happy about.
If dial-up lines aren't being used, we should cut down to the number that are.
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aruba
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response 31 of 83:
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May 8 07:32 UTC 1998 |
Re #29: Rane, we're always *trying* to increase our membership rates.
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danr
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response 32 of 83:
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May 8 14:28 UTC 1998 |
Dialup lines may be an expensive way of providing access, but I too
think it's an important part of our public service to provide them.
Having said that, if two of them are not being used, then I'd feel
perfectly comfortable getting rid of one of them. It's not as though
we can't add more later should the demand be there.
Are there any other ways, besides deleting phone lines, to save money?
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remmers
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response 33 of 83:
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May 8 14:35 UTC 1998 |
Re #30: I'm not expecting to the dialup usage to grow. But the
dialups are still a ways from being obsolete. I would oppose any
cuts that make it significantly more difficult for people to
access the system via that route, unless it is *truly* a matter
of financial exigency for us.
Dialups are certainly an expensive way of providing access.
Expensive for Grex. But cheaper for the people who use them,
since it doesn't involve their paying an ISP charge on top of their
phone bill. If we are really a charitable organization, it's the
issue of expense to the user that we should be focusing on. We
should be looking for ways to keep it as cheap as possible for people
to access our service, and serve those who cannot afford more expensive
means of access. If we're not a charitable organization, we shouldn't
be asking the IRS to subsidize us as one.
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remmers
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response 34 of 83:
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May 8 14:36 UTC 1998 |
(Dan's #32 slipped in.)
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rcurl
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response 35 of 83:
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May 8 14:50 UTC 1998 |
Re #31: OK, Mark, what are the significant membership efforts now underway
in Ann Arbor? What advertising is occurring currently in newspapers or
on TV? What direct mail to likely constituencies is in the mail now? Where
are we offering our services to the public in public venues? I could go
on....
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keesan
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response 36 of 83:
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May 8 17:02 UTC 1998 |
Rane, you sound like the perfect person to be membership chair. I hereby
volunteer Rane to implement some of his good ideas! I saw something go by
on a TV we were fixing at Kiwanis yesterday that appeared to be about Grex,
it may have been mid-afternoon.
As a dial-in member, I would have no objection to paying a bit extra
for the privilege, maybe a dollar a month. But as people keep saying, it is
hardly ever busy enough on thelines tha I have to wait. Maybe once in
two months? I don't imagine an extra five minute wait will be all that
discouraging to anyone, it has not been to me. What is the total number of
paying members who use dial-in lines? What is the total monthly cost of all
the dial-in lines?
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aruba
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response 37 of 83:
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May 8 17:50 UTC 1998 |
Re #35: Ah, you mean we haven't "spent money to try to increase the
number of local users on Grex". I agree that we haven't done much of
that. (The free ad Misti got us on cable channel 11 is great, however.)
We did spend a little on advertising last year. We haven't done more
because we can't seem to agree on which advertising is worth doing (though
at the budget meeting in February we agreed that advertising was third on
our list of priorities). If you think some of those ideas you mentioned
are worth spending money on, how about pushing for them in the item about
getting more members? Or, as keesan said, become our membership chair? I
think that would be great.
But getting more people to log on is only the first stage of the process -
you also have to convince more users to become members. I took affront at
your saying that we haven't tried to get more members, because I try to do
that all the time - every time someone sends me a query about it. It
hasn't seemed to do a whole lot of good - most such people seem to think
of Grex as a cheap ISP, and don't have the concept of contributing to a
charity. But maybe not doing it would make things worse, I don't know.
We did agree at the last board meeting that we will try sending out mail
to nonmembers on their 3-month, 6-month, etc. anniversaries. However
doing that requires some programming on Jan and Valerie's part, and I'm
not sure how soon it'll happen.
Perhaps what you meant, Rane, is that we are not reaching enough people
with our appeals to log in to Grex and to become members. And perhaps you
meant that we haven't tried *enough*. With those statements I agree.
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aruba
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response 38 of 83:
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May 8 17:54 UTC 1998 |
Re #36: Sindi, you are quite welcome to include an extra donation with your
dues, it will be appreciated. But I don't think we want to get into the
pattern of charging different dues according to what services people use; that
amounts to selling service, and I don't want us to go down that road.
When I last calculated it, the cost of our phone lines was $18.46 per line
per month. So the total cost of our dialins is 13 X $18.46 = $239.98.
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keesan
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response 39 of 83:
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May 8 18:00 UTC 1998 |
How many paying members (and how many total users) would you estimate use the
dial in lines regularly? If you divide $240 by that number, I would consider
it fair to pay the result as an extra donation, per year. Perhaps some
nonmembers who dial in regularly would also be willing to pay something
towards the phone cost, you could at least ask them to consider it.
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aruba
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response 40 of 83:
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May 8 18:00 UTC 1998 |
BTW I agree with remmers' argument that providing dialups is consistent with
our charitable mission. We are not in business to make money, so I don't
believe we should be trying to push our users into doing what we want (as scg
said), but rather we should adapt to what they need.
I also agree that I don't want to cut dialin service to the point where it
is "significantly harder to dial in". I'd like to see us decide what
"significantly harder" means, numerically. Then we'd have a basis for
deciding how many lines we need.
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aruba
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response 41 of 83:
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May 8 18:11 UTC 1998 |
(keesan slipped in at #39) 69 of our current members live within a local call
of Grex. But everytime imply that being local and dialing in are related, scg
takes me to task, since it's certain that some locals telnet in.
I think remmers is right, and we should think of providing dialins as a
charitable service. If we start asking people to pay according to what they
use, then we are selling service, plain and simple. Let's not go there.
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rcurl
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response 42 of 83:
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May 8 18:41 UTC 1998 |
I dial in when the internet link is down. Haven't gotten a busy signal
even then, for a long time.
I am already "maxed out" on volunteer activities - indeed some tend
to languish already. But surely there is someone with time and interest
and they are free to use any ideas that go their way - from me or anyone
else.
OK, Mark - we haven't tried *enough*.
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keesan
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response 43 of 83:
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May 8 18:43 UTC 1998 |
Misti seems to be doing a lot towards recruiting new members. I wonder if
she would like an official title. Or simply thanks for a good job.
I don't think anyone would object to stating how many dollars per year it
costs, per dial-in user, to pay for the dial in lines, and suggesting that
users might want to contribute a bit extra.
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aruba
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response 44 of 83:
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May 8 19:19 UTC 1998 |
*I* object to that. It amounts to guilt-tripping the people who are already
being very generous in supporting Grex.
It's not like our financial situation is hidden from anyone. I post it
every month. (Not that anyone notices, mind you. ;))
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aruba
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response 45 of 83:
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May 8 19:22 UTC 1998 |
Re #43,44: I assumed in #44 that keesan meant stating the costs of dial-ins
in the reminders I send to people when their memberships are due. Now that I
reread her response, I'm not sure that's what she meant.
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keesan
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response 46 of 83:
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May 8 20:08 UTC 1998 |
I'm not quite sure what I meant, either, but would it be possible to ask those
people who are not paying members, but who dial in, to contribute at least
a bit towards maintaining the phone lines, if not $60/year? Presumably it
is not just paying members who benefit from the phone lines, and those who
use the phone lines infrequently may appreciate being able to help in this
way, without paying for full membership.
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dpc
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response 47 of 83:
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May 9 01:58 UTC 1998 |
I agree with remmers et al. about dialins being an essential part of
what Grex is.
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mdw
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response 48 of 83:
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May 9 04:01 UTC 1998 |
Actually, I wonder if C. Keesan would make a good membership chairman?
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keesan
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response 49 of 83:
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May 9 22:29 UTC 1998 |
Thank you for your interest, but we will concentrate for the meantime on
getting our Kiwanis electronics department, where we have been volunteering
20 or more hours/week, under control, and then attempt to sell computers
set up to access grex, 'for dummies'. Misti was in today, and suggested
handing out a grex brochure to everyone who bought a computer, but nobody
has been buying any recently because they are not organized yet. When Jim
gets his one-key disk perfected, we will run ads in the Freebies.
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