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25 new of 166 responses total.
klg
response 25 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 16:21 UTC 2003

Well said, Mr. cross.

Thank you, Mr. lk.
scott
response 26 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 17:38 UTC 2003

Re 23:  

See, I don't buy that argument that Israel has been overly fair and that the
Arabs are irrational and violent.  Sounds like a nice little racist attitude,
frankly.
tod
response 27 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 18:05 UTC 2003

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cross
response 28 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 18:26 UTC 2003

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scott
response 29 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 20:03 UTC 2003

I just don't agree, Dan.  You'd basically *have* to be calling the Arabs
irrational and violent to explain the situation in "Israel is only defending
itself" terms.  Of course not even Leeron has "stated" that the Palestinians
are violent and/or irrational, but plenty of times he's implied such.
gelinas
response 30 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 20:25 UTC 2003

Why Scott?  What is irrational about defending one's land from an invader?
The Palestinians see the Jews as invaders.  They want them gone.  Apparently,
the others in the area agree with the Palestinians.  All are willing to use
any method necessary to achieve their goals.  The Jews want a secure homeland,
everyone else wants them gone.
klg
response 31 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 20:47 UTC 2003

or dead.
bru
response 32 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 23:14 UTC 2003

not all arabs are violent.  The palestinians just have a high percentage of
racists in their base sample, kinda like we used to have KKK in the south.
tod
response 33 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 7 23:26 UTC 2003

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lowclass
response 34 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 01:33 UTC 2003

The SOUTH???
cross
response 35 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 02:17 UTC 2003

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klg
response 36 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 02:26 UTC 2003

Good points.
tod
response 37 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 02:41 UTC 2003

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russ
response 38 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 02:54 UTC 2003

Re #29:  If Dan's explanation is not correct, exactly how are you
supposed to interpret the explicit words and actions of the various
Arab muslim nations and terrorist.... excuse me, "freedom fighter" groups?
lk
response 39 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 04:48 UTC 2003

As usual, Scott has to try and snub me (#29) precisely because he can't
address the substance of what I say (#24):

> Of course not even Leeron has "stated" that the Palestinians
> are violent and/or irrational, but plenty of times he's implied such.

Of course, except that for each time Scott has repeated this garbage there
is also a time he was unable to cite any example of such an "implication".
Scott should attempt to respond to what I do say rather than resort to
such straw man arguments.

Joe:

> The Palestinians see the Jews as invaders. They want them gone. Apparently,
> the others in the area agree with the Palestinians.  All are willing to use
> any method necessary to achieve their goals.

I think that sums it up. They aren't interested in compromise or peace.
Their goal historically, and at present for a plurality if not a majority,
is expelling or killing the Jews.

But, Joe, keep in mind that the "Palestinians" are Arabs who are not distinct
from the surrounding neighborhood. To the contrary, while some have resided
there for a few hundred years, many immigrated from those surrounding areas
in the 20th century (a particularly large wave from Egypt in the 1840s).
As I've shown previously, in the first half of the 20th century the term
"Palestinian" also referred to Jews (living in Mandate Palestine). The
organization that represented the Arabs of Palestine was the "Arab High
Committee".  The term "Palestinian" was adopted in the 2nd half of the 20th
century. More on this in a moment.

That this is "Arab land" (Or Islamic land, Dar a Salam) has been inculcated
into their collective minds. That the Jews are "colonists" (what is the
"mother country"?!), not just in the "territories" but in Israel itself, is
a cornerstone of their belief.  (To this end, you'll find many engaging in
various anti-Semitic arguments, suggesting that Jews aren't really Jews
but Khazars or contradictingly that Jews are Jews but are a religion and
not a people or a nation.)

In a recent discussion with a Palestinian Arab, he was surprised to learn
that a majority of Israel's Jews were born in Israel. But then he presumed
that the majority had European/American parents. Turns out that 79% of the
mothers where likewise born in Israel. (Sorry, I didn't find stats about
fathers but assume that immigration stats are close enough to 50/50 that
this shouldn't matter).  And only 15% of the grand-fathers were European
or American immigrants. (Oddly, the stats list demographic data for the
baby's mother and her father.)

In any event, what is troubling about the "colonist" model is that many
would-be "progressives" swallowed this faulty analogy as if it were a
repeat of the white man's assault upon Native Americans. In this scenario,
Jews are greedy invaders while the Arabs are indigenous and defenseless
natives (which is why many Jews have a difficult time disassociating this
from anti-Semitic myths).

Except that the Arabs are Not indigenous, which can be seen from their
naming themselves after the land upon which they settled (it's not like
they have any connection to the Philistines who themselves were non-native
European invaders 3250 years ago).  Imagine a group of people who moved to
Iowa and called themselves "midwesterners"; would that make them indigenous?

Nor was it the Jews who were attacking defenseless Arabs. The exact opposite
was the case -- for centuries.  For more about the Arab and Muslim
mistreatment of Jews, see:

http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/40079.php 

Nor were the Jews greedy. The Jewish Agency accepted the principle of
partition when it was first suggested in 1937. And again in the form of the
1947 UN compromise. And UNSCR 242. And most recently the Clinton compromise.

The Arabs rejected this at each juncture, prompting the late Aba Eban to
quip that they "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity [for peace]".
Is this a coincidence? Bad PR? Or can we conclude that they miss these
opportunities because they aren't interested?

Peace comes at a price -- compromise, and in the Arab world compromise is
akin to surrender. And this is where Dan is right on the mark with respect
to cultural differences and perspectives.
earnal
response 40 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 06:21 UTC 2003

THE STRATFOR WEEKLY
4 August 2003
 
by Dr. George Friedman

The Wall of Sharon

Summary

Seeking to end the risk of Palestinian attacks, Israel is 
building a barrier to separate Palestinians and Israelis. For the 
wall to work, it must be more like an iron curtain than the U.S.-
Mexican border. It must be relatively impermeable: If there are 
significant crossing points, militants will exploit them. 
Therefore, the only meaningful strategy is to isolate Israelis 
and Palestinians. That would lead to a Palestinian dependency on 
Jordan that might, paradoxically, topple the Hashemite regime in 
Amman. If that happens, Israel will have solved a painful 
nuisance by creating the potential for a strategic nightmare.

Analysis

Israel, under Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, is in the process of 
building a wall that ultimately will separate Israelis and 
Palestinians along a line roughly -- but not at all precisely -- 
identical to the cease-fire lines that held from 1948 until 1967. 
The wall is far from complete, but the logic for it is self-
evident: It represents Israel's attempt to impose a reality that 
will both satisfy the Jewish state's fundamental security needs 
and the minimal political demands of the Palestinians without 
requiring Palestinian agreement or acquiescence. It is an 
extraordinary attempt at applied geopolitics. The question is 
whether it will work.

Let's begin with the technical aspect. It is possible, with 
substantial effort, to create a barrier that not only stops 
large-scale population movements but seriously inhibits small-
scale movements as well. The Iron Curtain was more than a 
rhetorical term: We once walked along the Austro-Hungarian 
border, seeing watch towers with machine guns and search lights; 
concertina wire; wide, clear-cut killing fields where 
infiltrators or exfiltrators could be observed day or night using 
search lights and flares, and dense mine fields. The line ran 
from the Baltic to the Yugoslav border. It did work -- there was 
certainly some movement across, but only at great risk and 
probable failure. 

The purpose of the Iron Curtain was to prevent eastern Europeans 
from moving to the west and away from Soviet occupation. It was 
difficult to build and maintain, but it was built and it did work 
quite well. It was built with World War II technology. The 
Israeli project will involve more modern sensor technology, both 
human and machine. Movement will not be spotted by the luck of 
the flare, but with sound sensors, ground radar and unmanned 
aerial vehicles. The point is that from a technical standpoint, 
if the Iron Curtain could work, this can work. The challenge is 
political and military, not technical.

From the Israeli standpoint, the driving force is desperation. 
Suicide attacks have achieved what Palestinian planners hoped for 
-- convincing the Israelis the status quo cannot be maintained. 
The bombings have convinced Israeli leaders that the continued 
physical occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip are not 
an option. The problem the Israelis have had to confront is that 
simply retreating and abandoning the occupation might not solve 
their strategic problem. From the Israeli standpoint, the problem 
of the Oslo accords is that they rested on a political decision 
by the Palestinians, who had to guarantee that they would abandon 
further claims -- and military operations -- against the state of 
Israel in return for Israeli withdrawal. 

The last two years convinced Israeli leaders of two things: 
First, that any guarantee from a Palestinian government was 
unstable and could not be regarded as permanent; and second, that 
even if the Palestinian government was able to maintain its own 
commitment to an agreement, it was incapable of guaranteeing that 
all Palestinian factions would honor it. Israel observed the 
ability of the Irish Republican Army, ETA and other groups to 
continue operations without or against state sanctions. Since the 
absolute minimum concession from the Palestinians had to be the 
cessation of suicide bombings and related actions against Israel, 
this posed an insuperable problem. On the one hand, the status 
quo was untenable; on the other, a political foundation for 
withdrawal appeared to be unattainable. Israel was trapped 
between two impossible realities.

For Israel, the Camp David accords with Egypt provided the basic 
model for negotiations with Arabs. Camp David consisted of three 
parts:

1. Egyptian recognition that Israel could not be destroyed 
through military action.
2. Israeli recognition that Egypt was capable -- as in 1973 -- of 
carrying out military operations that were too costly for Israel.
3. Recognition that the Sinai desert could serve not only as 
Israel's strategic depth in maneuver warfare, but equally well as 
a demilitarized buffer zone large enough to prevent surprise 
attack.

It was on this basis that Menachem Begin, Sharon's intellectual 
and strategic mentor, reached agreement with Egypt to end 
hostilities -- an agreement that remains the strategic foundation 
of Israel's national security policy today. The crucial piece was 
that the deal did not rely on Egypt's good will: The buffer was 
sufficiently large that any Egyptian violation would be quickly 
noticed and could be responded to militarily. In other words, 
Israel could keep control of its fate without holding Egyptian 
territory. 

The Oslo agreement was an attempt to apply this same principle to 
the Palestinian question. It was built on the Palestinian 
recognition that Palestinians could not destroy Israel 
militarily, and Israeli recognition that the cost of occupation 
was greater than Israel could rationally bear. What was missing -
- and always has been -- was a third step. There has been no 
possibility of disengagement. From the Israeli viewpoint, this 
has meant that any settlement depended on both the continued 
goodwill of the Palestinian state and the absence of dissident 
anti-Israeli movements. Since neither could be guaranteed, no 
solution was possible.

Hence, the fence. It should be noted that the creation of a fixed 
barrier violates all Israeli military thinking. The state's 
military doctrine is built around the concept of mobile warfare. 
Israel's concern is with having sufficient strategic depth to 
engage an enemy attack and destroy it, rather than depending on a 
fixed barrier. From a purely military standpoint, Israel would 
view this barrier as an accident waiting to happen. The view of 
barriers (such as the Suez Canal) is that they can all be 
breached using appropriate, massed military force. 

This is the critical point. From the Israeli standpoint, the wall 
is not a military solution. It is not a Maginot Line designed to 
protect against enemy main force; it is designed to achieve a 
very particular, very limited and very important paramilitary 
goal. It is designed to stop the infiltration of Palestinian 
paramilitaries into Israel without requiring either the direct 
occupation of Palestinian territory -- something that has not 
worked anyway -- nor precluding the creation of a Palestinian 
state. It is not the Maginot Line, it is an Iron Curtain. And 
this is where the conceptual problems start to crop up.

The Iron Curtain was a fairly impermeable barrier. Nothing moved 
across it except at very clearly defined and limited checkpoints. 
The traffic at these checkpoints was quite low during most of the 
Cold War, and there was ample opportunity for inspection and 
interrogation of traffic headed in either direction. Even so, 
these checkpoints were used by Western intelligence both to 
penetrate Warsaw Pact countries and to extract people. There were 
other points along the frontier where more informal traffic 
crossed, but what never took place -- particularly after the 
Berlin Wall went up -- was mass, interzonal traffic on a 
continual basis. 

The Iron Curtain never looked like the U.S.-Mexican border, nor 
can the U.S.-Mexican border become an Iron Curtain because 
neither the United States nor Mexico wants that to happen. Trade 
is continual, and the movement of illegal labor from Mexico to 
the Unit manpower. If the wall is not 
continual and impermeable, it may as well not be there.

The geopolitical idea underlying the fence is that that it will 
not be permeable. If this goal is achieved, regardless of where 
the final line of the fence will be, then economic and social 
relations between Israel and Palestine will cease to exist except 
through third-party transit. Forgetting the question of Jerusalem 
-- for if Jerusalem is an open city, the fence may as well not be 
built -- this poses a huge strategic challenge.

Palestinians historically have depended on Israel economically. 
If Israel closes off its frontiers, the only contiguous economic 
relationship will be with Jordan. In effect, Palestine would 
become a Jordanian dependency. However, it will not be clear over 
time which is the dog and which is the tail. Jordan already has a 
large Palestinian population that has, in the past, threatened 
the survival of the Hashemite Bedouin regime. By sealing off 
Palestinian and Israeli territories, the Israelis would slam 
Palestine and Jordan together. Over the not-so-long term, this 
could mean the end of Hashemite Jordan and the creation of a 
single Palestinian state on both sides of the Jordan River.

There are Israelis -- including Sharon, in our view -- who would 
not object to this outcome. They have argued that the Hashemite 
presence in Amman has long distorted the reality in the region. 
The Hashemite regime was installed by Britain after World War I. 
In the opinion of some Israelis, Jordan ought to be the real 
Palestine. Therefore, if the fence results in the fall of the 
Jordanian monarchy and the creation of a unitary Palestinian 
state, these Israelis would find this a positive development. 
Indeed, one argument goes that a Jordan with boundaries roughly 
analogous to pre-1967 lines would undermine Palestinian radical 
movements by creating a more stable, less aggressive Palestinian 
nation-state.

Two other scenarios exist. In one, the Hashemites survive and 
drive many of the Palestinians on the east bank of the Jordan 
into the West Bank; the Israelis maintain their cordon sanitaire 
and the Palestinian nation-state becomes an untenable disaster -- 
trapped between two enemies, Israel and Jordan. Israel would not 
object to this, but the problem is that the level of desperation 
achieved in Palestine might prove so chaotic that it either would 
threaten Israeli national security or set into motion processes 
in the Arab world -- and among Israel's Western allies -- that 
would increase pressure on Israel. In other words, the Israelis 
would wind up strategically where they started, with the non-
trivial exception of fewer or no suicide bombings.

The other scenario is that the Palestinians do merge with Jordan, 
but -- given the dynamics of the Arab and Islamic worlds -- the 
new nation-state does not moderate but instead generates, with 
assistance from other Arabs, a major military strike force for 
whom the fence represents at most a minor tactical barrier rather 
than a strategic force. Under this scenario, the consequences 
would be a return to the strategic situation of 1948-1967 (except 
for Egypt's participation), with a potentially more powerful 
enemy to the east. If Egypt were to change its policies, the 
outcome could be strategically disastrous for Israel.

The problem with the fence, therefore, is this:

1. If it is to be effective as a barrier, it must be nearly 
absolute; large-scale movement cannot be permitted.
2. If a Palestinian state is isolated, it would develop a 
dependency on Jordan that could topple the Hashemite regime, 
creating a potential strategic threat to Israel.

The fence strategy works only if the Palestinian-Jordanian 
rot have 
good choices. It has to make some bad ones work.
...................................................................
earnal
response 41 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 06:25 UTC 2003

#40 Source www.stratfor.com
scott
response 42 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 12:12 UTC 2003

re #35:
And you're totally ignoring the fact that there are Jewish racists and
extremists as well.
bru
response 43 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 13:37 UTC 2003

certainly there are extremists and racist on both sides, just as there are
in any country including ours.  But while 20% if the isralis may be racist,
80% of the palestinians may be.
happyboy
response 44 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 17:38 UTC 2003

where did you get those percentages, stinky?
lk
response 45 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 17:44 UTC 2003

As I've noted before, at the height of his popularity, the late Rabbi
Kahane's extremist Kach party managed to gain 1 seat in Israel's 120-seat
Knesset (parliament). That's less than 1% of the vote.

No one denies or ignores that there are Israeli racists and "extremists".
But this is another false comparison, as if both sides are equal because
both have racists and extremists.

If you read today's entry in item 27, you'll see that:

08:57   Yitzhak Pas and Matityahu Shabo, accused of involvement with Jewish
        terror cell, are indicted for transporting explosives 

(It should be noted that Pas had his 10-month old daughter murdered,
intentionally shot in the head by an Arab sniper as she slept in her crib.)

What's important here is that the Israeli government does what it can (and
that's quite a lot) to prevent these racists and extremists from carrying
out any violence against Arabs.  Either it's pretty good at it or there
aren't that many trying.

In contrast, the PA refuses to arrest known terrorists or even disarm the
terrorists who are harbored in territories where they have security control.
These "racists and extremist" are much more extreme.

Rabbi Kahane never murdered anyone (he advocated transferring the Arabs
out of Israel). Yet he himself was murdered by Arab extremists. So was his
son and daughter-in-law.

Were Kahane an Arab who retained his views in mirror image, he'd be a moderate.

In Israel, Kahane's Kach party was outlawed as a hate group nearly 10
years ago.

In the PA, hate is officially incited at government levels (in the media,
in school books, etc.)

Attempting to equate on the basis of "extremism" is an obfuscation.
Israeli extremists are not that extreme and have little power or influence.
Arab extremists are often murderous thugs and have pretty much run the show
for decades.
cross
response 46 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 18:35 UTC 2003

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tod
response 47 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 19:42 UTC 2003

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scott
response 48 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 22:20 UTC 2003

Re 46:  No, it's not irrelevant.  Whether or not they gain specific numbers
of seats in the govt, they can still influence the positions of those who do
run the country.  The tolerance of illegal settlements is proof of that.

And if it was the Israelis being oppressed, perhaps those extremists would
be running the government.
cross
response 49 of 166: Mark Unseen   Aug 8 23:26 UTC 2003

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