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Grex > Agora46 > #143: ACLU Files First Challenge to USA PATRIOT Act | |
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| 25 new of 61 responses total. |
cross
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response 25 of 61:
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Aug 4 18:59 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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tod
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response 26 of 61:
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Aug 4 19:20 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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slestak
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response 27 of 61:
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Aug 4 19:36 UTC 2003 |
Me vs. Myself vs. I ....
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sj2
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response 28 of 61:
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Aug 4 20:15 UTC 2003 |
Heh, seriously, who in pre-Nazi germany thought that Germany would give
rise to a Hitler?
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tod
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response 29 of 61:
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Aug 4 20:20 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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sj2
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response 30 of 61:
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Aug 4 20:23 UTC 2003 |
Ok, but how far would you dispute the following:
1. Unemployment is at an all-time high in the US and jobs are leaving
the US fast.
2. Recently introduced laws are retrogressive as far as civil rights
are concerned.
3. The EU is aligning its policies with the interests of the US,
politically and economically.
4. US has its military presence almost across the whole globe.
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tod
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response 31 of 61:
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Aug 4 20:31 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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sj2
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response 32 of 61:
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Aug 4 21:05 UTC 2003 |
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/usapatriot_oakland021217.htm
l
Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush
administration and the USA Patriot Act following the Sept. 11, 2001,
terror attacks:
Freedom of Association Government may monitor religious and
political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist
terror investigation.
Freedom of Information Government has closed once-public
immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without
charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records
requests.
Freedom of Speech Government may prosecute librarians or keepers
of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed
information related to a terror investigation.
Right to Legal Representation Government may monitor federal
prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny
lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
Freedom from Unreasonable Searches Government may search and seize
Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror
investigation.
Right to a Speedy and Public Trial Government may jail Americans
indefinitely without a trial.
Right to Liberty Americans may be jailed without being charged or
being able to confront witnesses against them.
------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't consider this against civil rights?? Just curious.
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cross
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response 33 of 61:
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Aug 4 21:15 UTC 2003 |
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dcat
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response 34 of 61:
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Aug 4 21:46 UTC 2003 |
[http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59879,00.html] :
Bush Impeached? Wanna Bet?
Though there was an outcry over the Pentagon's terrorism futures market, a
similar online exchange is in the works to predict what the U.S. government is
up to.
The American Action Market will offer various Washington "futures" that can
be bet upon and traded. Examples include:
* Which country will the White House threaten next?
* Who will be the next foreign leader to move off the CIA payroll and onto the
White House's "most wanted" list?
* Which corporation with close ties to the White House will be the next
cloaked
in scandal?
The AAM will begin registering traders in September and plans to open for
business Oct. 1 -- the same launch date proposed for the Pentagon's terrorism
market, until it was shelved.
Like the Pentagon's scrapped Policy Analysis Market, the AAM lets traders
"bet" on future events by buying and selling futures as though they were
stocks. The higher the price, the more likely the market believes the event
will occur. But instead of predicting terrorist strikes, the AAM will predict
things like the next White House staffer to quit.
[full story at http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,59879,00.html]
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sj2
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response 35 of 61:
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Aug 5 05:46 UTC 2003 |
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Business/story_50157.asp
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AFP - The number of people in the existing US jobless pool - those
claiming unemployment benefits for at least two weeks - has climbed to
a 20-year high, the government said.
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That may not be an all time high but should be worrying. About jobs
leaving US, only time will tell whether they are come back or not.
About US military, except for China, India and Russia? And they too
are within aircraft and missile strikes of the US.
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gelinas
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response 36 of 61:
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Aug 5 05:50 UTC 2003 |
Except that the US is pulling back from those outposts.
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sj2
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response 37 of 61:
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Aug 5 05:51 UTC 2003 |
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2003/0710imperialmap.ht
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156 countries with US troops, 63 countries with US military bases and
troops, 7 countries with 13 new bases since 9/11. 46 countries with no
US troops. - Source DoD, Base Structure Report 2002 etc.
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novomit
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response 38 of 61:
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Aug 5 11:28 UTC 2003 |
So what country would you recommend us progressives to emigrate to and how
much would it be likely to cost?
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cross
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response 39 of 61:
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Aug 5 13:22 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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russ
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response 40 of 61:
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Aug 5 22:06 UTC 2003 |
Re #35: Your historical perspective is rather short. As recently
as the late 1970's, US unemployment was in the neighborhood of 10%
and inflation hit something like 17%. (The combination of a stagnant
economy and inflation got its own name: stagflation.) People were
not rioting in the streets.
This is not to say that 6% unemployment might not get politicians to
do stupid things for political advantage, but politicians don't need
a crisis to do that; manufacturing crises or the impression of one
is a required Poly Sci course nationwide (or might as well be ;-).
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slestak
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response 41 of 61:
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Aug 6 01:51 UTC 2003 |
manufacturing crises / manufacturing consent ...?
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gull
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response 42 of 61:
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Aug 13 02:12 UTC 2003 |
Re #10: If the goal is to save lives, we'd be better off passing
legislation that bans standing on golf courses during thunderstorms than
passing anti-terrorism legislation. We're giving up our vital liberties
in exchange for a slight increase in protection against a risk that's
small to begin with.
Re #38: New Zealand might be a good place. The U.S. Navy isn't allowed
to dock there. They also treat their gay immigrants better than the
U.S. treats its gay citizens, if that matters to you.
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bru
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response 43 of 61:
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Aug 13 13:56 UTC 2003 |
Are you suggesting gays should move to New Zealand?
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oval
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response 44 of 61:
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Aug 13 15:27 UTC 2003 |
i think you should.
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tod
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response 45 of 61:
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Aug 13 17:18 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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gull
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response 46 of 61:
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Aug 13 18:46 UTC 2003 |
Re #43: If the U.S. continues its path towards formally codifying
discrimination against gays, they might at least want to think about
moving to a friendlier country. I know some people who are planning
moves to Canada because they feel the U.S. is getting steadily more
conservative and theocratic.
Re #45: All I'm saying is that if the goal is to move somewhere where
the U.S. doesn't have a lot of influence, going somewhere the Navy can't
dock isn't a bad idea.
New Zealand won't allow the U.S. Navy to dock there because they're a
"nuke free zone", and the U.S. Navy will "neither confirm nor deny"
whether any particular ship is carrying nuclear weapons.
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tod
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response 47 of 61:
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Aug 13 19:04 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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happyboy
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response 48 of 61:
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Aug 13 19:09 UTC 2003 |
re44: HAW!
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russ
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response 49 of 61:
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Sep 14 23:16 UTC 2003 |
This seems like the appropriate place for this...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20030914/ap_o
n_go_ca_st_pe/anti_terror_laws_2
New Terror Laws Used Vs. Common Criminals
Sun Sep 14, 1:14 PM ET
Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!
By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer
PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained
fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and
prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on
al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.
The Justice Department (news - web sites) said it has used authority
given to it by the USA Patriot Act to crack down on currency smugglers
and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and
drug dealers.
Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of
"terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California
man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in
his car.
A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a
methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the
manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller
could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings
about six months.
Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines
chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is
designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and
contains toxic chemicals.
Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string
of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh
anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.
"Within six months of passing the Patriot Act, the Justice Department
was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping
provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a
spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys.
"They say they want the Patriot Act to fight terrorism, then, within
six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary
citizens."
Prosecutors aren't apologizing.
Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) completed a 16-city
tour this week defending the Patriot Act as key to preventing a second
catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more
than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130
convictions or guilty pleas.
The law, passed two months after the Sept. 11 attacks, erased many
restrictions that had barred the government from spying on its
citizens, granting agents new powers to use wiretaps, conduct
electronic and computer eavesdropping and access private financial
data.
Stefan Cassella, deputy chief for legal policy for the Justice
Department's asset forfeiture and money laundering section, said that
while the Patriot Act's primary focus was on terrorism, lawmakers were
aware it contained provisions that had been on prosecutors' wish lists
for years and would be used in a wide variety of cases.
In one case prosecuted this year, investigators used a provision of
the Patriot Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers
accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won
the Canadian lottery. Prosecutors said the defendants told victims
they would receive their prize as soon as they paid thousands of
dollars in income tax on their winnings.
Before the anti-terrorism act, U.S. officials would have had to use
international treaties and appeal for help from foreign governments to
retrieve the cash, deposited in banks in Jordan and Israel. Now, they
simply seized it from assets held by those banks in the United States.
"These are appropriate uses of the statute," Cassella said. "If we
can use the statute to get money back for victims, we are going to do
it."
The complaint that anti-terrorism legislation is being used to go
after people who aren't terrorists is just the latest in a string of
criticisms.
More than 150 local governments have passed resolutions opposing the
law as an overly broad threat to constitutional rights.
Critics also say the government has gone too far in charging three
U.S. citizens as enemy combatants, a power presidents wield during
wartime that is not part of the Patriot Act. The government can detain
such individuals indefinitely without allowing them access to a
lawyer.
And Muslim and civil liberties groups have criticized the
government's decision to force thousands of mostly Middle Eastern men
to risk deportation by registering with immigration authorities.
"The record is clear," said Ralph Neas, president of the liberal
People for the American Way Foundation. "Ashcroft and the Justice
Department have gone too far."
Some of the restrictions on government surveillance that were erased
by the Patriot Act had been enacted after past abuses — including
efforts by the FBI (news - web sites) to spy on civil rights leaders
and anti-war demonstrators during the Cold War. Tim Lynch, director of
the Project on Criminal Justice at the Cato Institute, a libertarian
think tank, said it isn't far fetched to believe that the government
might overstep its bounds again.
"I don't think that those are frivolous fears," Lynch said. "We've
already heard stories of local police chiefs creating files on people
who have protested the (Iraq (news - web sites)) war ... The
government is constantly trying to expand its jurisdictions, and it
needs to be watched very, very closely."
___
On the Net:
Justice Department: http://www.usdoj.gov
American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites):
http://www.aclu.org
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