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Grex > Agora35 > #28: Prosecution in the case of the Great M-net Crash | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 145 responses total. |
ashke
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response 25 of 145:
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Sep 27 15:15 UTC 2000 |
re #8 and #20 and anyone using this jay-walking analogy. It is my
understanding that there is no state or federal law for jaywalking, it is a
local ordinance. In Ann Arbor, there is no ordinance against jay walking (the
joke is, unless you get hit by a car, then you're "obstructing" traffic.)
Richard, please. I'm sorry, but you hack, you're f^&*ed. I agree, that a
lot of the down time, as I understood it from the posts here, was because they
used the hack to change and upgrade somethings they had planned to do but not
set a time for. However, he did hack the system in the first place. Freedom
of information I'm all for, but hackers who's intent is willful destruction
or breaking of systems? It's not cool, no matter how much the movie made it
seem (btw, I do like HACKERS the movie, but who the hell hacks on a Mac?)
Jail time? I'm not for it, but strict fine maybe? Scare the shit out of
them? Cool. But something needs to be done.
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richard
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response 26 of 145:
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Sep 27 16:28 UTC 2000 |
hacking is a felony only if it causes more than $1,000 in damage--
given the circumstances, and the fact mnet made its own decisions in
keeping mnet down as long as it was, it will be easy to say mnet
is exaggerating in claiming this cost them more than $1,000. Tyhe
repairs could have been done cheaper and more expeditiously than they
were. Mnet was also delayed in getting back up because the box was
out in Livonia and then mnet staff, due to the fact they are all
volunteers with lives, didnt have the time to get it up as quick as
possible. Allof that is not the kid's fault.
Hacking that does not, repeat not, cause over $1,000 in damages is
not a felony according to this law. Since they can make a case that
mnet exaggerates its damage claims, the kid is going to get off unless
his lawyer is an idiot.
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remmers
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response 27 of 145:
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Sep 27 16:57 UTC 2000 |
I was thinking of attending this but probably won't, since it's
just a preliminary examination and shares today's docket with
about 25 other cases. So who knows when they'll actually get to
it; I can't dedicate all afternoon. I'd be interested in hearing
what happened though.
(See http://www.co.washtenaw.mi.us/depts/courts/CALENDAR/PEX.HTM
for this and next week's calendar for preliminary exams.)
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senna
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response 28 of 145:
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Sep 27 17:46 UTC 2000 |
I'm almost attempted to attend just to prove richard is talking out of his
ass, but no proof is required. :) He's just being contentious and bitter,
methinks.
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birdy
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response 29 of 145:
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Sep 27 18:03 UTC 2000 |
As usual... =)
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gull
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response 30 of 145:
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Sep 27 19:23 UTC 2000 |
Re #19:
> The kid didn't actually break anything tangible (such as a window).
> If m-net had not been negligent in not making sure well known security
> flaws were not present (I am I think correctly assuming that the kid
> broke in via some method that was already well published at the time the
> event took place).
--> So if someone picks the lock on your house and sleeps on your couch, it
shouldn't be a crime because nothing was broken, and you should have known
your locks were defeatable?
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scg
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response 31 of 145:
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Sep 27 20:30 UTC 2000 |
It's my understanding that even if I leave my front door open (I don't), it
wouldn't be legal for somebody to just walk in without permission.
As for damages, they're hard to compute. We can start out with what we know;
the time the M-Net staff spent rebuilding things. Whether or not they
replaced the hardware, there still would have been lots of software to do.
The time was donated, but that doesn't make it worthless. Since M-Net has
no employees, we probably have to think of what was donated as consulting
time, for which I'm guessing any of the M-Net staffers involved could charge
at least $100/hour. Just from that, you get to $1,000 after 10 hours of work,
and that $100/hour is probably a conservative estimate. Where it gets harder
to calculate is in looking at the incidental damage. To Arbornet, that could
involve donations they would have gotten if they were up. For the users, what
if somebody had sent out a bunch of resumes using an M-Net e-mail address?
What if they missed getting a high paying job as a result of that? The loss
of revenue is unknown, but could have been considerable. As for repair costs,
once they're past nine or 10 hours of work, they've easily hit the felony
point.
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brighn
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response 32 of 145:
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Sep 27 21:15 UTC 2000 |
My understanding was, if you walking into somebody's house when their door
was unlocked (and you don't have reason to believe you're allowed there), it's
trespass, but if you pick a lock or otherwise foil obvious security measures,
it moves up to breaking and entering... that is, "breaking" entails something
other than opening an unlocked door.
But maybe that's just too many bad primetime detective shows, and trespass
is illegal anyway.
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mcnally
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response 33 of 145:
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Sep 27 21:28 UTC 2000 |
BTW, I think the M-net hacker should get credit for trashing *TWO* systems.
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ashke
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response 34 of 145:
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Sep 27 23:53 UTC 2000 |
Brighn, I thought that the breaking had nothing to do with locks, but rather
the crossing of a threshold that wasn't there to cross, like going in an open
window is still considered Breaking...
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carson
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response 35 of 145:
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Sep 27 23:55 UTC 2000 |
resp:33 (I was just thinking the same thing, even though it's Against
Jerryr's Rules Of Hospitality to think it.) ;)
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jerryr
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response 36 of 145:
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Sep 28 00:15 UTC 2000 |
my rules? as if. if i took my cue from grexers i'd have to invent
multi-syllabic curse words to describe you, carson :) and in addition
i'd have to accuse you of a whole bunch of things you hadn't done. ;)
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scott
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response 37 of 145:
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Sep 28 00:35 UTC 2000 |
:s/grex/M-Net
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polygon
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response 38 of 145:
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Sep 28 01:38 UTC 2000 |
The common-law definition of burglary was "the breaking and entering
of a dwelling of another in the nighttime with the intent to commit
larceny or a felony therein." If you walked through an open door,
it wasn't burglary (but lifting a latch would be "breaking"). If
it were daytime, it wasn't burglary. If it were a barn, or bank, it
wasn't burglary.
Why this very restrictive definition? Burglary was a capital crime.
Convicted burglars were hanged.
The common-law definition has been changed in every state to something
at least slightly more modern, i.e., it doesn't have to be nighttime,
it doesn't have to be a dwelling, etc., to be burglary.
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richard
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response 39 of 145:
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Sep 28 01:49 UTC 2000 |
also think about it, youput a felony conviction onthat kid'srecord
its there forever. He's 17 years oldand might have trouble getting
jobs,loans or whatever for the restof his life because he played a st upid
prankwhen he was 17. Maybe he should pay reparations,but a felony
convictionis quite harsh.
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other
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response 40 of 145:
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Sep 28 02:00 UTC 2000 |
If felony convictions weren't harsh, hard-up ex-cons would be raping you in
the street without fear of serious repercussions.
Think about it. Do you *really* want to diminish the instructive value of
exemplary felony prosecution?
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birdy
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response 41 of 145:
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Sep 28 02:02 UTC 2000 |
Richard continues to prove his stupidity...
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mcnally
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response 42 of 145:
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Sep 28 02:42 UTC 2000 |
Actually, I tend to agree with Richard that the price that might be
paid by the moron in question is severe and out-of-proportion to his
transgression.
I also harbor a sneaking suspicion that more that a significant number
of people on this system have engaged in behavior that, under the current
law, might well qualify as a felony.. Although I never deliberately
trashed anyone else's system, I can recall a few stunts I pulled back in
my early student days that probably would have been prosecutable, had
anyone cared to make a federal case out of them (to borrow a literally
appropriate expression..)
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gull
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response 43 of 145:
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Sep 28 03:50 UTC 2000 |
Isn't his record sealed when he turns 18 anyhow?
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mdw
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response 44 of 145:
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Sep 28 06:41 UTC 2000 |
I think that depends on if he's tried "as an adult" - which seems likely
in this case.
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bru
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response 45 of 145:
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Sep 28 13:43 UTC 2000 |
Is the april fools day prank a felony now? Do we call and have them put in
jail?
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brighn
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response 46 of 145:
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Sep 28 14:40 UTC 2000 |
Quite a few years back, as a prank, two people tossed a dummy tied to a rope
off an overpass. A driver panicked, cut her wheel, and careened into the
overpass. Dead.
Pranks are not felonies. The results of pranks can be just as real as anything
else though (goes back to that stuff in the Napster item about "motive").
There's also that kid a few months back who told the girl from Columbine that
"it would happen again" -- again, just a prank, but the courts weren't amused.
And many computer virus writers are just pranking.
I thought the, "He's only 17, it's ok, he shouldn't be punished for the rest
of his life" defence only applied to the Republican presidential candidate.
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polygon
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response 47 of 145:
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Sep 29 00:05 UTC 2000 |
After five years, if you have only a single felony on your record,
it is possible to get it expunged. I have helped several people do
this.
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brighn
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response 48 of 145:
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Sep 29 02:51 UTC 2000 |
But job interviews/applications ask if you've ever been convicted of a felony.
Isn't it dishonest to say 'no' simply because it's no longer on your record?
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mcnally
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response 49 of 145:
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Sep 29 04:25 UTC 2000 |
More to the point, isn't it naive to expect a felon to answer truthfully?
:-p
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