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| Author |
Message |
| 22 new of 46 responses total. |
other
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response 25 of 46:
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Nov 19 04:16 UTC 2003 |
They actually collected case studies of CPR and effects and found
that reliably better results were obtained when chest compressions
were applied continuously (with appropriate checking to determine if
the patient had resumed breathing and heart function) than when
chest compressions were mixed with mouth-to-mouth.
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mary
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response 26 of 46:
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Nov 19 12:28 UTC 2003 |
Reliably better is misleading here as very few cardiac
arrest victims survived at all without defibrillation.
But they are hoping that if the pressure is off to
do mouth to mouth on a stranger that more folks will be
inclined to stop and help and use AEDs. That does save
lives.
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slynne
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response 27 of 46:
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Nov 19 23:26 UTC 2003 |
What are AEDs?
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other
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response 28 of 46:
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Nov 20 05:26 UTC 2003 |
auto-electro-defibrillators?
Something like that. It is a very easy to use (requiring little
expertise) and quite effective mini version of the device with the
paddles that you always see people shouting "clear!" in preparation
for the use of on tv.
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mary
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response 29 of 46:
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Nov 20 11:37 UTC 2003 |
It's an automated external defibrillator. An AED is a little
smaller than a shoebox and usually hangs on the wall in public
locations. Airport terminals have 'em, high school locker
rooms have 'em, Walmart has 'em. You need no training to
use them as once you turn it on with a well marked green "ON"
button, a recorded voice will tell you exactly what to do
next. They save lives like CPR without defibrillation never
did.
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gelinas
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response 30 of 46:
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Nov 20 12:38 UTC 2003 |
(Did you mean that Walmart offers them for sale?)
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bru
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response 31 of 46:
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Nov 20 14:06 UTC 2003 |
no, they hang them in the store. Just like they do fire extinguishers.
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gull
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response 32 of 46:
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Nov 20 15:02 UTC 2003 |
How much do they cost? It'd be great if they eventually got cheap enough
that they could be installed as ubiquitously as fire extinguishers.
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rcurl
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response 33 of 46:
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Nov 20 16:27 UTC 2003 |
Are their any hazards with their use, say on a person that has fainted but
some "good Samaritan" thinks has had a heart attack?
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gelinas
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response 34 of 46:
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Nov 20 17:11 UTC 2003 |
That's the 'automatic' part: they trigger themselves, based on the
information they obtain from their leads. (Machinery always seems to
find a way to fail, of course.)
Last I heard, they were still around $1,000 each. I'm hoping they'll
get cheaper; I'd like to put one in each vehicle.
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rcurl
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response 35 of 46:
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Nov 20 17:42 UTC 2003 |
First, s/their/there in #33.... 8^{
Re #34: my question concerns what can happen if they are given *bad*
information. The user might not interpret the victim's condition
correctly. Or are you saying the machine does the diagnosing itself? I
got the impression that it gave instructions and the user had to choose
the options.
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bru
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response 36 of 46:
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Nov 20 17:49 UTC 2003 |
I have a freind who is afraid of just that, since his heart is backward or
something like that.
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scott
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response 37 of 46:
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Nov 20 18:13 UTC 2003 |
It seems like it should be possible for the electrodes to return a heartbeat
or fibrillation signal before the charge is released. Would also be a ogod
check that the electrodes are properly placed.
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scott
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response 38 of 46:
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Nov 20 18:15 UTC 2003 |
Ah, here we go:
http://www.hometownconnections.com/utility/philips.html
"For added safety, the HeartStart patient analysis system will only deliver
a shock if one is needed."
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rcurl
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response 39 of 46:
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Nov 20 20:14 UTC 2003 |
It says "Plus the foolproof design of the FR2+ makes it virtually impossible
to defibrillate someone who is not SCA." Note that "virtually" escape word.
But I'd probably take the chance.
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mary
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response 40 of 46:
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Nov 20 21:25 UTC 2003 |
They run about $4,000 each and individual can purchase
them for home use with a prescription from a doctor.
They won't shock unless a shock is needed. There is an
interesting story here about something the Ypsilanti
school system did regading AEDs. But I'm at work right
now. I'll enter it later, from home.
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scott
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response 41 of 46:
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Nov 20 22:17 UTC 2003 |
I could easily see a bully using one of those, if not for the autodetection
safety feature.
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mary
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response 42 of 46:
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Nov 21 00:14 UTC 2003 |
An AED works like this. You turn it on. It tells you to put the pads
(two large sticky leads) on the patient. There is a picture on each lead
showing you placement. The AED then tells you it's analyzing and not to
touch the patient. It will come back with "shock not needed" if pulse
supporting activity is found. If it finds fibrillation it will say "shock
indicated", "stand clear", "shock". At the point the person taking
charge should visually check that nobody is touching the victim then push
the SHOCK button.
That's it. No decisions need to be made. The machine does all the
evaluating. And it's very precise in terms of recognizing fibrillation.
One of the only mistakes that can be made is if people can't keep their
hands off the patient during the analyzing phase. That little bit of
activity will be picked up and the AED won't recognize the fibrillation.
You can't force it to shock someone with a heart rate. You can't fake
it into shocking. Fibrillation is a very specific, low-voltage, fine
phase rhythm.
For those who collapse due to cardiac arrest their chances of leaving the
hospital able to care for themselves, brain function intact, is close to
zero if fibrillation continues more than 10 minutes. Despite CPR. Wow.
Forget thumping on someone's chest. Run for the AED. I've been certified
in this stuff for almost 30 years now, but the last couple have seen huge
changes in how to save lives. And it's AEDs.
So here's what happened with Ypsi schools. The PTO got together the money
to buy one for these for the school. Lots of school have them now. I
think it was used just last year to save a student who collapsed on the
field in Saline. He had been hit in the chest with a line drive during
baseball practice. Not an unusual response to such an injury.
Anyhow, the Ypsi school board, hearing of the gift got it into their heads
that this sounded like a technology ripe for abuse and *refused to accept
the AED*. They couldn't have done any research into how they operate, or
of the lives they've saved. They just knew it sounded like something they
didn't want.
I can just imagine how many zeros will be on the check they'll be writing
when the first kid who needs this dies for lack of having it available.
This is a great example of how dangerous ignorance can be.
Wow, sorry about the length of that one.
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jep
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response 43 of 46:
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Nov 21 04:20 UTC 2003 |
Wow. Don't apologize for the length, Mary. I had no idea these AEDs
were so useful or so carefully designed. The Cub Scout camp where my
son and I went last summer has one. I thought it was an extraneous
expense, unlikely to be used or to do any good. I'll have to look
into whether the Clinton schools have them.
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gelinas
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response 44 of 46:
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Nov 21 05:35 UTC 2003 |
http://www.aedsuperstore.com/ offers AEDs starting at $1245, but that's
still more than I can spend right now.
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gull
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response 45 of 46:
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Nov 25 17:28 UTC 2003 |
Re #42: I actually knew a guy in college who was doing research into
designing better chest protectors for kids who play baseball. I had no
idea that it was so easy for a blow to the chest to kill someone, until
I talked to him.
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willcome
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response 46 of 46:
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Nov 27 09:39 UTC 2003 |
whore.
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