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Grex > Coop13 > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
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| 25 new of 480 responses total. |
cross
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response 240 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:04 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #238; Whoops; when I say ``Regarding #236'' that should be
``Regarding #234.''
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cross
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response 241 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:09 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #234; I guess I should make a technical point. It wouldn't matter
to 99.9% of grex users if grex's operating system was written in assembly
language with configuration files written in Klingon. Nor would it matter
if small gnomes verified passwords by comparing them to scrolls held in
jealously guarded caves deep within the depths of the earth. But, it *would*
matter to the people tasked to fix something if it broke. And then it would
matter to the users because some resource they used would be (potentially)
unavailable.
Oh well.
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slynne
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response 242 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:24 UTC 2006 |
resp:238 What do you mean by "the same can be said of some of the
present staff members"? Do you mean that you might not want to work with
some of them? FWIW, I can see why someone might feel that way too.
Anyhow, I too am glad that remmers had chosen to explain the procedure
for selecting staff because in all honesty, I didnt really understand it
totally before recently.
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maus
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response 243 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:34 UTC 2006 |
resp:241 Very nicely put. Just so you know, you can get the gnomes to
work harder of you stick a chocolate cake into the chassis once a month.
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tod
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response 244 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:42 UTC 2006 |
Mmm..chocolate
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cross
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response 245 of 480:
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Dec 13 01:44 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #242; Me? I don't particularly care.... But some of the current
staff members could certainly be perceived as prickly.
I also suspect that, had anyone on grex ever actually met me in person, they'd
be amazed at how laid back I actually am.
Regarding #243; Hell, I'd like a chocolate cake RIGHT NOW.
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slynne
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response 246 of 480:
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Dec 13 02:14 UTC 2006 |
resp:245 I wont argue with you on that point. I think that there are a
LOT of prickly folks around this joint.
FWIW, I suspect that if everyone got a chance to meet face to face over
some nice chocolate cake, we might all get along just fine.
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cross
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response 247 of 480:
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Dec 13 03:09 UTC 2006 |
Oh yeah.... Maybe I should make some cookies.
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keesan
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response 248 of 480:
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Dec 13 03:24 UTC 2006 |
I accidentally left my filter on verbose. About 90% of my spam is being
filtered before it hits spamassassin because it is in an E. European font
(koi-R cyrillic, Windows-1251 (or 50 or 52), has an embedded IMG, is sent with
mailer The Bat! (I think they specialize in pharmacy stuff) or contains the
string Price: in the message body (stock spams) but is in us-ascii or 8859-1.
I caught a few with javascript or text/css or bordercolor. Spamassassin got
most of the rest but I try to put it last after the other filters on the
assumption that it uses more resources. I also put my whitelists ahead of
spamassassin.
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gelinas
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response 249 of 480:
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Dec 13 03:29 UTC 2006 |
(Re transparency: Much of the process was discussed in Item 12 of this
edition of coop, " Mom, Dad? Where do new Grex staffers come from?")
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cross
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response 250 of 480:
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Dec 13 04:22 UTC 2006 |
I wasn't referring specifically to the process when it comes to adding grex
staff. I was referring to the decisions that staff makes.
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cmcgee
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response 251 of 480:
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Dec 13 14:11 UTC 2006 |
It seems to me that a small group of staff members who work well with each
other (ie spooked and cross) only need to get along with a few other staff
members in order to be an asset. Perhaps staff members who are able to shrug
off immature comments (really, mic, I have to agree that "or else I'm leaving"
is petulant and childish).
A technical subcommittee, whose work is brought back to staff by the staff
member on the team, could accomplish a great deal without all the subcommittee
members being staff.
At an agile software company where I am working, the basic hiring standard
is "makes other people look good". Not grades in CS courses, not
demostrations of workable code, but simple kindergarten skills of working and
playing well with others.
These skills are teachable. Even folks with autistic tendencies can learn
them. But it seems to me that the lessons need to be absorbed by current
staff as well as potential staff. I suspect remmers has the ability to coach
people who are just beginning to acknowledge these are critical skills to
have. (In spite of his frustrated post above).
I don't know what it's going to take to get current core staff to start
helping newbies look good. I do believe that cross and mic have taken a great
deal of personal abuse for taking the initiative to get things moving. I also
believe that current staff take a lot of personal abuse when Grex doesn't meet
the fantasies of some users.
I offer my skills as an organizational development consultant, and team
training consultant to work with staff (current and potential) to see who has
the willingness to change behaviors so that Grex can continue to add staff,
and not wither because people here don't know how to make others look good.
The tipping point in changing staff culture does not have to wait for 100%
of current staff to learn these behaviors. It only takes a few of them to
make a big difference in whether or not Grex staff will begin to welcome
newcomers.
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cyklone
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response 252 of 480:
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Dec 13 14:32 UTC 2006 |
Good points.
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cross
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response 253 of 480:
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Dec 13 14:39 UTC 2006 |
Interesting ideas.
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remmers
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response 254 of 480:
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Dec 13 18:01 UTC 2006 |
For the record, in case it wasn't clear - the opinions I expressed above
are strictly my own. I certainly wasn't speaking for the staff, or
relaying any opinions that I heard from anyone else. As I said, I
supported Mic's reinstatement and took the initiative to have an email
discussion with staff about that. I hope I'm not violating any
confidentiality protocols when I say that of the several staff who
responded, none were opposed. I started having misgivings when Mic
started posting with #171 and subsequent responses. I don't know if
other staff members' positions have changed or not.
Re #251: I certainly agree that "simple kindergarten skills of working
and playing well with others" are vitally important to the functioning
of a technical staff. But I honestly don't think that the problem is
that the staff "doesn't welcome newbies". Besides Dan Cross, several
new people were appointed to staff in the last three or four years (e.g.
Mike McNally), and although a couple of them left for personal reasons,
I never got a sense that the staff was dissatisfied with their work, or
that they were unhappy with how they were treated. Mic was hardly a
newbie, by the way - he was a staff member at least since 1999, a 7-year
veteran.
I can't speak for everybody, but I believe that the Grex staff would
welcome new folks with useful technical skills who can "play well with
others." Perhaps clearer lines of communication are needed for people
to express an interest in staff work.
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cross
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response 255 of 480:
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Dec 13 18:11 UTC 2006 |
I think you need to define, ``play well with others.'' *My* impression was
that means, ``defer to Steve and/or Marcus in all but the most trivial
matters.''
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nharmon
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response 256 of 480:
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Dec 13 19:38 UTC 2006 |
Nobody wants any help because we're not to the "admitting something is
wrong" phase yet. What will that take?
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cmcgee
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response 257 of 480:
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Dec 13 19:46 UTC 2006 |
Thanks remmers for a calm assessment.
My current sense is that staff, as a team, doesn't have a clear mechanism for
reaching agreement if 100% consensus isn't happening. While I'm a strong
believer in consensus-run teams, I have seen good ideas die because one strong
person refused to go along with everyone else. [Experience with HRP political
decision making]
What appears to be missing for staff is an agreed upon decision process, by
which decisions can be made if there is deeply divided staff opinion.
There doesn't seem to be a way to test competing ideas, or to evaluate
"success" after testing.
We might want to think about "writing the test first", an agile software
process that lets the user experience set criteria for a successful solution.
It's often faster to test two competing ideas than it is to get two entrenched
programmers to agree based on logical arguments with each other.
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cmcgee
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response 258 of 480:
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Dec 13 19:46 UTC 2006 |
256 slipped
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slynne
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response 259 of 480:
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Dec 13 20:49 UTC 2006 |
cmcgee, it sounds like you have a lot to offer grex and it also sounds
like you are a person with a skill set that would be very useful in this
situation.
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rcurl
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response 260 of 480:
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Dec 13 20:56 UTC 2006 |
In my opinion a conscensus form of decision is best when it is not very
important if a decision is made or not. When decisions are important, I prefer
a parliamentary system that allows the majority to rule with protections for
the views of the minority. I have functioned within both systems, but have
found that drift often results from conscensus systems.
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cmcgee
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response 261 of 480:
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Dec 13 21:47 UTC 2006 |
Respectfully, Rane, consensus works just fine when it's important to make a
decision. You and I have seen it work extremely well over the years here on
Grex.
There are varying definitions of consensus. What it means to a particular
decision making body has to be defined by that body, just as "majority" has
to be defined. (Please don't start the Robert's Rules conversation just yet).
Often a democratic majority is defined as agreement by >50% of the voters.
Often consensus is defined as agreement by 100% of the voters.
In each case, the decision rule is accepted BEFORE the question is discussed.
As far as I can see staff does not have a decision rule that defines
consensus, and does not have a decision rule that defines how action is taken
if the (fuzzily defined) consensus is not reached.
At this point, there is enough staff burnout that I doubt they can reach
either of those agreements (what is consensus, and what do we do if we can't
reach consensus) by doing what has worked in the past.
I'm suggesting that current staff explore (perhaps with me as a facilitator)
ways to define those two decision rules, using some form of consensus to do
so.
[I'm going to link this to coop since we've really gotten into Grex governence
issues is a big way.]
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nharmon
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response 262 of 480:
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Dec 13 21:52 UTC 2006 |
The choices do not just include democratic majority and consensus. I
believe the most appropriate organizational structure for Grex staff is
a hierarchy with one person appointed by staff to be a Systems
Administrator, and that one person appointing staff, approving changes,
and removing staff when necessary. The BoD would decide overall policy
and dictate goals and vision. The staff would implement those plans
under the leadership of the Systems Administrator.
Where I work, the boss makes the decisions and he is responsible for
them (including all the way up to my company's BoD).
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cross
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response 263 of 480:
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Dec 13 22:23 UTC 2006 |
(This item was already linked to coop, btw...)
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krj
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response 264 of 480:
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Dec 13 22:37 UTC 2006 |
Yes, this item is now #376 *and* #384 in coop. :)
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