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Grex > Coop11 > #84: outgoing internet access for non-members | |
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| Author |
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| 25 new of 127 responses total. |
devnull
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response 24 of 127:
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Mar 17 04:04 UTC 1999 |
What janc describes in #18 seems like exactly the right idea. Assuming
enough staff time (which I know may be a bad assumption), it ought to
be possible to write a program which whomever is processing the snail
mail can run; they enter the login name, it perhaps displays the login
name and full name, and asks for a yes/no confirmation, and then the
program picks a random code word, records the code word in a file, and
prints it on the screen. Person writes code word on paper, and mails it off.
At the moment, my feeling is that the only problem anyone has brought up
that I have any concern about at all is the question of whether there is
a volunteer to process this mail.
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mdw
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response 25 of 127:
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Mar 17 06:52 UTC 1999 |
Record keeping, validation, consistency, flexibility, policy.
One of the conditions our last ISP imposed on us is that we *not* offer
unlimited internet access to regular users. This was one of the
conditions we agreed to in exchange for reduced rates on the internet
connection. Our last ISP was also a commercial outfit selling shell
accounts - if we had given those away "for free" that would have
undermined his business. Our current ISP, not being a commercial ISP,
does not have any such condition, but there is no guarantee we'll be
able to keep them forever, or, if we select a future commercial ISP,
that "giving away" shell accounts with unlimited internet access might
not become a liability.
Validating internet access imposes these responsiblities on us: we need
to keep records on who it is (so that in case there are problems, we can
hold the person responsible for their actions). The logical person
(indeed the only real choice we have at present) is our treasurer, for
obvious reasons. That means treasurer time that can't be spent on other
more important activities, such as deciding when to send out paper
receipts, or dealing with credit card memberships or whatever else we
decide is important.
There are still lots of policy issues to be resolved. One of the most
important is "what does it really mean to be local?" The first obvious
question is just how local do you mean by local? A^2? SE Mich?
Midwest? If you believe local people should include people who primarily
or only access grex via telnet from other places, then I don't see much
reason to be geographic-centric: grex's "virtual" community is
world-wide, and I see no reason why we should be any more picky about a
user who happens to use the seattle public library than one who happens
to use the ypsilanti public library to access grex. The second
question, of course, is what about people who move -- do they suddenly
become ineligible? How do we decide when they've moved away? What if
they're just on vacation, or going to college somewhere far away but
might be back for summer vacations, or are commuting across the state to
visit their significant other every weekend? If we really mean only
people who dial up to grex (as opposed to telnetting in from the public
library), perhaps that's something login ought to notice: if person is
using a local dialup (same logic as we use for the telnet queue) and
person is in the "validated-local" login group, add them to the
"internet" group also. Of course, that's not just login, that's also
ftpd, and sshd, which makes it an inelegant and nuisance fix, but
perhaps not much worse than the $MAIL hack we already have.
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aruba
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response 26 of 127:
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Mar 17 12:45 UTC 1999 |
I'm not too worried about the extra time needed to process requests for
validation. I think that as long as we limit this to people who are a local
call from Grex, we won't be flooded with requests.
If we were just talking about telnet, then I don't see any reason to give out
telnet privileges to anyone who's telnetted into Grex; they obviously already
have the capability. So Marcus's idea of putting people in the internet group
if they are in the validated group and are dialed in makes sense. (But of
course it will require staff to make some software changes.)
I suspect, however, that more people will ask to be validated in order to use
ftp and irc than they will for telnet. It's possible that people at, say,
a public library (or at work behind a firewall) might be able to telnet out
but not irc out. It seems possible to me that we might get a horde of
requests from such people (I really don't know) if we don't limit the granting
of privileges to people who are dialed in.
There is another advantage to limiting validation to people local to Ann Arbor
- we can send the Grex brute squad after them if they do anything nasty.
Well, actually, there is no Grex brute squad, but potential vandals might
*suspect* there is one, so will be less likely to make mischief if they know
they're physically near Grex's base of operations.
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mary
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response 27 of 127:
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Mar 17 12:48 UTC 1999 |
I would volunteer to be a validator. I bet others would too.
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dpc
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response 28 of 127:
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Mar 17 15:24 UTC 1999 |
There is *too* a Grex brute squad. Howcum nobody told you who was
in it, aruba?
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pfv
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response 29 of 127:
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Mar 17 15:44 UTC 1999 |
"..folks in india can't afford 6/mo.."
<snort>, yeah right.. "Software Engineers", too.
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mary
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response 30 of 127:
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Mar 17 17:21 UTC 1999 |
Ack, aruba's response got in and I didn't know it.
I volunteered in vain. ;-)
Opening it up to dialin users would be a nice way
to test this out.
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aruba
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response 31 of 127:
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Mar 17 18:36 UTC 1999 |
Re #28: I guess it's a secret.
I suppose we could have more than one validator, but there would have to be a
central place where validation info is stored. I'm not sure how picking up
the mail would work, too.
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prp
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response 32 of 127:
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Mar 17 19:57 UTC 1999 |
GIF ?
FSF ?
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prp
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response 33 of 127:
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Mar 17 20:13 UTC 1999 |
Re system load: As I rember there are about five dial-in users and sixty-five
network-in users. Thus if restricted to dial-in users, system load should
not be a problem.
Re verification: Given the dial-in restriction, you have effectively limited
this to locals. As you have monthly meetings, in person verification is
possible. No new software required.
Re troublemakers: A public file with the id's, name's and address's of
verified users might keep it to a minimum.
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remmers
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response 34 of 127:
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Mar 17 21:59 UTC 1999 |
I'd object to a public file of names and addresses on right-to-privacy
grounds.
There are well-established procedures for validating members for
outgoing internet access. We could simply use the same procedures for
non-member verification.
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keesan
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response 35 of 127:
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Mar 18 01:47 UTC 1999 |
How about giving out a few free memberships to anyone who can demonstrate that
they are unable to donate $6/month for a paid membership? And require them
to provide the same id as all other members. (dial ins only).
You can ftp at the library, we have done it, faster than on grex.
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rcurl
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response 36 of 127:
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Mar 18 01:52 UTC 1999 |
I would not support that. The minimum dues are already very low, but
still represent a committment of support. I would have no objection
to *others* donating the $6 for the penurious to become members.
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aruba
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response 37 of 127:
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Mar 18 05:04 UTC 1999 |
Re #33: Grex currently has 11 dialin lines.
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fadedx
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response 38 of 127:
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Mar 18 10:03 UTC 1999 |
i think your $6 a month is perfectly fair, in fact i just started this
service about a week ago and tommorow i'm sending in my $.
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aruba
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response 39 of 127:
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Mar 18 14:28 UTC 1999 |
Thanks!
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devnull
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response 40 of 127:
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Mar 18 14:57 UTC 1999 |
Re #35: That seems like a reasonable alternative to me; I'm not sure whether
I prefer to give the poor free membership, or give everyone within the local
calling area outgoing access. I do think the latter has the advantage that
only people who really care about grex will be able to vote, which may be
a win.
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keesan
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response 41 of 127:
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Mar 18 16:28 UTC 1999 |
I got the impression that only people who were both members and cared about
grex bothered to vote anyway.. What was the 'turnout'? (I forgot).
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hhsrat
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response 42 of 127:
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Mar 18 22:36 UTC 1999 |
Some users even within the Ann Arbor area cannot dial in due to the way
they're wired, so limiting this new feature to dial in users only will
be excluding some people.
Personally, even though I'm not a dial in user, I'd like to be
"verified" or "validated" or whatever.
Would this be feasible?
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prp
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response 43 of 127:
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Mar 18 23:58 UTC 1999 |
Re FTP at the AA Library: It very rarely works, even if you've purchased
one of their disks. I've thought about volentering to help them, but they
have a lot of computers.
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aruba
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response 44 of 127:
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Mar 19 01:32 UTC 1999 |
Re #42: You can certainly become a member, for $6/month.
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keesan
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response 45 of 127:
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Mar 19 10:57 UTC 1999 |
re 43, maybe we downloaded from a website using lynx, not ftp? It wassome
long file that Jim wanted to play with.
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devnull
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response 46 of 127:
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Mar 19 17:49 UTC 1999 |
Re #42: Yes, it is excluding some people. It might be reasonable later
to consider allowing anyone in the US to be verified and get outgoing access,
but I think starting with the people who can connect to the modems directly
is best.
(I have concerns about international people because the legal systems in
other places will be different, and we may start having to worry about vandals
more.)
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prp
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response 47 of 127:
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Mar 19 21:46 UTC 1999 |
Another problem at the library is the 30 minute time limit. Just enough
time to find what you want, but not enough to do anything with it.
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richard
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response 48 of 127:
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Mar 19 23:38 UTC 1999 |
The first line of the preamble to grex's bylaws states:
"IT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF THIS ORGANIZATION TO PROVIDE AN OPEN-ACCESS
CONFERENCING SYSTEM"
To my way of thinking, "open-access" is access that is not denied without
good cause.
Grex should draft a user contract that all users who want full membership
would be required to sign and provide along with validation. This
contract would explain grex's goals, and what is considered unacceptable
and acceptable behaviour and use of grex. It would state that the user
agrees that grex staff has the right to restrict or rescind member
priviledges of any user who engages in unacceptable activity. It
would state that grex is financed by voluntary contributions and that the
user agrees to consider contributing and to accept future snail mail or
email solicitations to that effect.
Any user willing to sign that contract, and provide validation, should be
given full membership. Grex could do a mass snail mail once a year,
sending (not stamped but pre-addressed to grex) envelopes to all validated
users. This would cost a few bucks but grex could get a bulk postage ID
so it wouldnt end up being that much (might be sixty bucks to send a
couple hundred letters which could bring back hundreds of dollars).
This would move grex much closer to being truly open-access, and make it
closer to the communal experience it should be. No tiered access, no
qualifications for membership other than that you are willing to sign your
name and make a verbal committment.
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