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Grex > Agora35 > #124: Win the electoral college but lose the popular vote? | |
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| 25 new of 409 responses total. |
jerryr
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response 229 of 409:
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Nov 22 19:25 UTC 2000 |
they have stopped counting *all* ballots bruce, dimpled ones included. the
gore folks are heading to court to force them to continue a handcount of all
ballots. they contend is mandated by law (since a one point the board
found that a recount could change the outcome)
broward county is going to continue evaluating the "undervote" ballots.
they will annouce that gore has gained 57 votes so far.
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scott
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response 230 of 409:
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Nov 22 19:36 UTC 2000 |
I myself don't think it's such a bad thing that we're "changing the rules in
the middle of the game". I think it makes a lot of sense to sometimes
evaluate what the rules are, what the effects of those rules are, and be
willing to make changes if the rules turn out to be defective. Heck, that's
a fair amount of what I do in software: customer finds bug, I fix. It's
interesting how often the "bug" isn't so mauch a bug as it is an area where
the customer and I assumed two different things and got two different
outcomes.
(I voted for Nader, so you can't accuse me of being a Gore partisan on this
issue. I'd actually find it rather funny if Bush's people fought this ttoth
and nail, lost the fight, and then won the vote [with an increase in lead]
after the dust settles. They'd have to pull a few yards of shoe out of their
collective mouths)
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rcurl
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response 231 of 409:
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Nov 23 18:40 UTC 2000 |
It has been established that the Bush camp is not against manual recounts -
only manual recounts that might not come out in their favor. I think the
FL supreme court should correct their time limit so that Miami-Dade can
complete their hand recount. The fundamental question is, how did the
people vote. It is really crass to fight finding out.
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bru
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response 232 of 409:
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Nov 23 19:08 UTC 2000 |
The Bush camp isn't against hand recounts that have a set boundary, an
established way of doint things. They are against recounts that are unsure
if 1,2,3,or all four corners on a hanging chad need to be free, if a dimpled
or pregnant chad are the same or different, where if there are not enough
hanging chads after counting 10% of the vote you start including Pregnant then
dimpled chads.
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gelinas
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response 233 of 409:
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Nov 24 05:10 UTC 2000 |
Bruce, that it is flat out bull shit. You've *quite* obviously NOT heard
a single word Your Hero's campaign has said. They have opposed the recount
on any ground they could dream up, INCLUDING: "It's not fair to recount
just a few counties; it should be all or none." "So why didn't you request
a recount in the other counties?"
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aaron
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response 234 of 409:
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Nov 24 05:19 UTC 2000 |
re #224: I don't think it would be consistent with either the statute
or the Constitution for a congressional disqualification of a
state's electors to throw the determination of the Presidency
to Congress. However, it is unlikely that it will happen, so
the Supreme Court probably won't hand us an answer.
The Florida Supreme Court refused to order Miami-Dade County to
recount its ballots, so the Gore campaign will contest the results
from that County. Meanwhile, the Republicans are pressing their
appeal in the Supreme Court. <sigh>
In Broward county, it turns out that some absentee ballots weren't
mechanically counted because the voters had circled their choices in pen.
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bru
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response 235 of 409:
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Nov 24 15:12 UTC 2000 |
Why request a recount after the automatic recount has shown you still won?
Now they can't request a recount because they are past the deadline. Glad
to see Gore saying"Hey, I am all for a recount of the e
ntire state" never mind that there is no law to allow that to happen. Bush
doesn't see a need or a way to recount the state. He doesn't see any
guidlines on what to include in the recount information. I probably shouldn't
say such things since I am not privy to the counsel he is getting, but thats
the way I understand it.
The rules don't allow it. The rules that do allow recounting have been
followed, but now the Gore camp wants to change the rules.
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johnnie
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response 236 of 409:
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Nov 24 19:00 UTC 2000 |
A (second, hand) recount seemed a rather obvious thing to request, given
the extreme closeness of the vote and the obvious inability of the
machines to count every vote.
Bush didn't/couldn't/wouldn't request a recount of the whole state
because there was a significant risk that he'd lose, especially since
requesting a recount implies that you want every possible vote to be
counted, including those with dimpled chads and whatnot, which were much
more common/numerous in the heavily Democratic counties. Better to
stick with the "I'm ahead and that's the way it should stay" attitude,
and try to make the other guy look like the sore loser.
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johnnie
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response 237 of 409:
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Nov 24 19:12 UTC 2000 |
And, not incidentally, my understanding is that Gore wouldn't have been
able to request a statewide recount. Non-automatic recounts are up to
(the election boards of) the individual counties, and getting one means
having a good reason. "Hanging chads are being undercounted in this
heavily Democratic county, and the number of votes I'm missing may
change the outcome of this election" is a good reason. "I think the old
reliable 'lever' machines in this heavily Republican county may have
missed one or two votes for my opponent" is not a good reason.
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polygon
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response 238 of 409:
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Nov 25 15:57 UTC 2000 |
The "old reliable lever machines" are certainly old, but they are NOT
reliable any longer. They are full of thousands of moving parts, none
of which are made any more.
It is very typical for a losing candidate to request a recount in one
subset of the district, and for the winning candidate to "retaliate"
by requesting recounts in all other areas.
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bdh3
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response 239 of 409:
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Nov 27 04:07 UTC 2000 |
Re: 'the Miami-Dade recount'. The Gore camp insists that the county
(which only tabulated 53% gore to 47% bush county wide) recount would
garner al-the-pal 700-900 voted based on the recount of 135 of 614
precincts before it was stopped. What the gore campos don't tell you is
that those 135 were the ones most likely to vote for gore. The
cuban-american precincts, which voted 'six of seven' for bush were not
recounted and were not included in the gore projections nor were others
who had gone 9 to 1 to bush. A prof. Brian Kalt from MSU projected that
a recount of the entire county would have resulted in a net gain of 400
bush votes. There were heavily republican counties in the panhandle
where as many as 20000 ballots were thrown out, maybeso they have just
as much a right to be recounted as any other county? (say they only went
3 to 1 for bush...)
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mdw
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response 240 of 409:
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Nov 27 05:18 UTC 2000 |
Maybe the bush camp should be insisting on a recount there?
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bdh3
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response 241 of 409:
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Nov 27 06:52 UTC 2000 |
Dunno. Maybe the bush camp is being shrewd instead of stupid the way
the GOP usually is. Maybe the bush camp is doing its own 'focus groups'
and 'polls' and figured that even die hard DNC types are disgusted at
the manipulation and 'lawyering' that is going on (78% say florida
should go as it was originally counted). Bush declaires after the 5pm
EST deadline that he is 'in transition' and the Clintonistas issue an
executive order *BEFORE* the deadline saying that no funds are to be
issued for said. Dunno.
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krj
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response 242 of 409:
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Nov 27 07:10 UTC 2000 |
Three cheers for George Bush, elected President because Florida is
incompetent to run an election, and incompetent to run a manual recount.
Bush becomes even more of an accidental president than Ford.
It's hard to see what's left in the barrel for Gore, unless the
Seminole County lawsuit, the potential land-mine, flips the result.
Broward County gets my applause for sticking to their knitting and
getting their recount done on time. Palm Beach gets a raspberry for
taking Thanksgiving off -- after getting a late start -- and then
being surprised that Secretary of State Harris wouldn't give them
a two hour extension beyond the deadline set by the Florida Supreme
Court. Fortunately for Bush, inclusion of the Palm Beach county
results wouldn't have changed Harris's certification today.
Miami-Dade: well, I knew immediately when the Florida Supreme Court
came out with their deadline that Miami-Dade was out of the game.
They'd already been intimidated out of working on their recount
earlier by Secretary Harris, and they had already announced that
with the late start they couldn't complete recounting until December 1.
If Gore wants Miami-Dade recounted, where does he go to make that
argument? By the rules of the Supreme Court decision, two of the
three counties in question still could not complete the recounts.
Bush, in his speech tonight, could hardly keep the smirk off his face.
Bush talks about how there was a count, then a recount, then a manual
recount: what bullshit! This is about on par with the weasel's
firm statement that Cheney did not have a heart attack!
But only the manual recount for Broward was included in the certified
results! Bush seems to be trying to claim that the manual recounts
were completed and he's still the winner, when the Republicans
successfully fought to block these recounts from being completed,
or included in the count.
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bdh3
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response 243 of 409:
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Nov 27 08:48 UTC 2000 |
Yep, #242 is exactly the thingy that no matter how it all plays out
*sombody* is gonna mention the grassy knoll and area 51 and roswell and
probably think about wearing aluminium foil hats (which if you use cell
phones may not be a bad idea....) Tri-latteralists and Bilderbugs.
Its all the jews fault. Yep thats it, its all the jews fault. Remember
the _Elders of Zion_, its all the jews fault.
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senna
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response 244 of 409:
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Nov 27 13:19 UTC 2000 |
I'm not seeing much ethical difference between dems and reps here. It's no
big deal. The country hates both of them.
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flem
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response 245 of 409:
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Nov 27 17:11 UTC 2000 |
Maybe if Florida's education system were better (like, oh, say, Texas), we'd
have had a prompt, fair election in Florida.
Looks like ol' Jeb came through, after all. ;)
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jerryr
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response 246 of 409:
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Nov 27 18:09 UTC 2000 |
approx. 25% of elligible voters in this country like either gore or bush.
the other 50% don't care enuff to caste a vote.
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albaugh
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response 247 of 409:
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Nov 27 18:35 UTC 2000 |
Some comic relief:
Subject: Palm Beach Pokey
You put your stylus in,
You put your stylus out,
You put your stylus in,
And you punch Buchanan out.
You do the Palm Beach Pokey
And you turn the count around,
That's what it's all about!
You put the Gore votes in,
You put the Bush votes out,
You put the Gore votes in,
And you do another count.
You do the Palm Beach Pokey
And you turn the count around,
That's what it's all about!
You bring your lawyers in,
You drag the whole thing out,
You bring your lawyers in,
And you put it all in doubt.
You do the Palm Beach Pokey
And you turn the count around,
That's what it's all about!
You let your doctors spin,
You let the pundits spout,
You let your retirees sue,
And your people whine and pout.
You do the Palm Beach Pokey
And you turn the count around,
That's what it's all about!
You do the Palm Beach Pokey,
You do the Palm Beach Pokey,
You do the Palm Beach Pokey,
That's what it's all about!
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ashke
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response 248 of 409:
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Nov 27 19:39 UTC 2000 |
a lot of people not voting has little to do with wether they care or not.
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jerryr
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response 249 of 409:
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Nov 27 20:11 UTC 2000 |
would you accept - not motivated enough to demonstrate that they care by
casting a vote?
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ashke
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response 250 of 409:
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Nov 27 20:12 UTC 2000 |
no...how about not motivated by the choices presented that they feel not
voting as an alternative to choosing the "lesser of two evils"
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jep
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response 251 of 409:
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Nov 27 22:04 UTC 2000 |
re #244: I'm not seeing much ethical difference between the Democrats
and Republicans,either, with respect to the Florida election process.
I've seen no reason at all to declare either side to be unethical, nor
do I think the process has been unethical or corrupt.
If the situation had been exactly reversed, with Gore leading the vote
in Florida by a few hundred to a couple of thousand votes, the Bush and
Gore campaigns would have reversed their actions pretty much exactly.
Bush would be demanding recount after recount. Gore would be saying
"the vote is over, let me get on with running the country", and trying
to close any openings anyone had that cast any doubt on whether he won.
Maybe one side or the other hasn't done some things the way we all would
have wished, but I find it hard to tell which side has been better or
worse about the situation.
It would be interesting to be able to have a case-study, with two
elections as close as this one has been, each one going to a different
party, so we could compare the actions of the two campaigns in each
situation, and the reactions of the press, and of the population. A
parallel universe Grex would be a wonderful thing to have right now.
Likewise with a parallel universe Newsweek.
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gull
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response 252 of 409:
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Nov 27 22:31 UTC 2000 |
With an election this close, there's no such thing as an adequately accurate
count, I suspect. It's probably within the margin of error of any method
you use. You might as well flip a coin and select the President that way.
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other
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response 253 of 409:
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Nov 28 03:50 UTC 2000 |
re:
>#250 of 252 by Sunny Sunshine (ashke) on Mon Nov 27 15:12:37 2000:
>no...how about not motivated by the choices presented that they feel not
>voting as an alternative to choosing the "lesser of two evils"
If the presidential race were the only one on the ballot, that argument
might be supportable, but since the number of races/issues on any given
ballot this November probably ranged from a minimum of 10 or 20 to a
maximum of over 100, the argument comes across more as facile than
realistic.
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