|
Grex > Coop13 > #376: The problems with Grex, e-mail and spam | |
|
| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 480 responses total. |
slynne
|
|
response 228 of 480:
| 
Dec 12 23:19 UTC 2006 |
resp:223 - well, you can always request a member vote to force Grex to
put cross and spooked on the staff if you want to.
resp:225 - As a board member, I dont really have an opinion about if
spooked or cross should be on staff. If the current staff were to
recommend either one of them, I would have no reservations about giving
my approval to the deal.
On the other hand, I can kind of see why the current staff might have a
problem with them. While I think that both of them probably can do good
things for Grex to the point where I have brought it up at a board
meeting, I can honestly see why the current staff might not want to
work with them. If I were on staff, I would have no trouble working
with them but I am not on staff.
As a board member, I am not inclined to force the current staff to
accept people they dont want to accept. There are a lot of reasons why
I dont think it is a good idea to step on the current staff's toes but
frankly, one of the major reasons is that I think that it is prudent to
stick with the staff members who DONT quit because they are the ones
who...well...DONT quit.
I would urge the current staff to consider them, of course.
|
tod
|
|
response 229 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:23 UTC 2006 |
I would encourage the staff to keep doing what its been doing: Nothing.
|
spooked
|
|
response 230 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:23 UTC 2006 |
Grex's 2006 Board members are:
Mark Conger (aruba) (treasurer)
S. Lynne Fremont (slynne) (secretary)
Joe Gelinas (gelinas)
Bruce Howard (bhoward)
Lawrence Kestenbaum (polygon) (president)
John Remmers (remmers)
Jan Wolter (janc)
o Have not heard from ---aruba--- on this matter.
o ---slynne--- obviously thinks I am foxing and have selfish motives.
o Have not heard from ---gelinas--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
o Have not heard from ---bhoward--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
o Not sure if polygon's weighted in on this matter.
o ---remmers--- has privately stated he regrets supporting my
re-instatement offer to staff (and he IS a staff member).
o Have not heard from ---janc--- on this matter (though he IS a staff
member also).
Considering OVER half of the current board are also staff members, it is
clear to me that both parties are taking pleasure is seeing me go.
|
spooked
|
|
response 231 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:25 UTC 2006 |
Haha Tod, they need no encouragment for that :)
|
tod
|
|
response 232 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:26 UTC 2006 |
You're giving yourself too much credit. I think they just aren't even around
as much as you are. Its too bad really cuz staff could use people who
actually want to do some patching but I understand that nobody wants to feel
the wrath of STeve or marcus when its possible they might have to face them
at a Grexwalk for the ultimate haki sack showdown or something.
|
cyklone
|
|
response 233 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:28 UTC 2006 |
lol
|
remmers
|
|
response 234 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:30 UTC 2006 |
Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.
Progress can be made toward a staff appointment in the absence of a
board meeting. That process is underway for Mic. The way it works is
that staff discusses an application, makes a recommendation to the
board, and then the board either approves or rejects it. There's
precedent for doing it all in email if the board isn't going to be
meeting soon, with the board reaching an informal concensus in email
following the staff's recommendation, the staff then moving ahead,
with the board ratifying the decision publicly at their next meeting.
I'm a board and staff member. Generally speaking, there are good
reasons for discussing personnel issues in private, and for not
expecting non-technical bodies to make unaided decisions on
appointments to positions that require technical skills. But since
Mic and Dan have elected to raise the issue of their staff status in
the public arena, I guess I'll weigh in publicly with my perspective
too.
First, although staff members don't comment in this conference as much
as they used to (I wish they were more visible), that doesn't mean
they're not doing anything. Steve Andre has a pretty busy life,
but when something comes up that needs attention and about which he's
knowledgable, he's there, and he acts. The recent problem with the
DOS attack launched from Grex required some work and interaction with
the company that hosts us -- he was there, he did it, although it was
somewhat behind the scenes. Same for Jan -- he's got an extremely
busy family and work life, but he's there for Grex when he's needed.
Mic made a substantial contribution to Grex - he wrote the "menu"
program under my supervision a few years ago. He did a nice job. I'm
not sure what he's done since. I thought he showed poor judgement and
people skills in the incident that led to his recent resignation but
was sorry to see him go. When he asked staff for reinstatement a
couple of weeks ago, mentioning a project he'd like to work on (not
spam control, by the way), I was supportive and started an email
thread among staff to discuss it. A few staff people responded and I
was waiting to hear from more. Mic sent me mail a couple of days ago
asking how things were going; I responded that I'd try to hurry it
along.
But a short time later I read his resp:171 in this item, and the
statement "I want to change the poor/apathetic/slack culture of Grex
staff" gave me pause, not because I think staff is perfect but because
it's red flag when someone who's asking to be part of a team to
publicly bad-mouth the people they're going to be working with. As I
watched his rhetoric escalate, my misgivings increased. Anne pretty
well sums up my own feelings in #219 and #220.
And speaking as someone who *does* know something about computing,
Unix, programming, etc. - I'm a little skeptical about Mic's claim
that he can make giant strides in the spam control area, when it's
pretty much an unsolved problem worldwide. I'm with McNally on that
one -- what's stopping you from discussing your ideas if you've really
got the good of Grex at heart? After all, spam control on Grex is
what this item started out to be about - an open forum on how to
approach Grex's spam problem. I'd love to see more ideas aired here.
I'm also in agreement with Anne's comments regarding Dan and will go
even farther. He's got some solid technical skills that would be
useful to Grex. He's also got a temper, a thin skin, takes things way
too personally, and has real trouble handling disagreements. He's
resigned from staff twice over things that didn't even involve other
staff members. He exaggerates the importance of certain technical
decisions that didn't go his way in an effort to gain political
traction in the public arena, such as the choice of operating system
platform. Okay, FreeBSD might be better for Grex than OpenBSD. But
not *that* much better. If Grex were to switch from OpenBSD to
FreeBSD tomorrow, 99.9% OF THE USERS WOULDN'T NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE -
IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL. Same for the password algorithm. But Dan
dramatizes these things as if they were life-and-death issues. He
airs his issues with the Grex staff not only on Grex but elsewhere as
well. (Like his recent "Grex needs an enema" item on M-Net, among
other things) It's hard to justify looking at someone whose technical
skills are a good match to a technical staff and say that they're not
suitable for that staff, but that's about where I am with Dan right
now. Too volatile, too high-maintenance, too intolerant of
disagreement, seemingly unable to work as part of a team.
|
spooked
|
|
response 235 of 480:
|
Dec 12 23:51 UTC 2006 |
Goodbye -- I am so not in agreement with remmers, particularly about what
contribution I have made to Grex (but more so his unfair appraisal of Dan)
and his way too kind account of STeve that it would not even be worth
responding.
So long - enjoy your productivity and lies.
|
tod
|
|
response 236 of 480:
|
Dec 13 00:01 UTC 2006 |
re #234
Todd doesn't know what he's talking about.
More than you'd like to admit, actually. The peanut gallery lights up like
xmas when someone on the board sends out an alert on the batphone. It was
completely transparent when Marcus appeared out of nowhere to defend a piece
of code (as you put it) 99.9% OF THE USERS WOULDN'T NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE -
IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL. Sure, maybe it isn't about haki sack in the Arb
but I'm sure you can know this "sense" of loyalty I'm speaking of. Nobody
dare second guess a "founder" of Grex else the xmas lights come on and the
coop cf filleth up with hot air quicker than Orville Reddenbacher can get his
bowtie off.
|
naftee
|
|
response 237 of 480:
|
Dec 13 00:59 UTC 2006 |
so much for "slow, thoughtful, careful decision-making" when there's nobody
around to hold a real discussion.
i can't believe that you guys (remmers and steVE) can't seem to grasp that
this GreX fundamental principle simply doesn't work with just two people.
it makes you guys look like dictators when you talk like that.
|
cross
|
|
response 238 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:03 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #219; I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Regarding #228; The same could be said of some of the present staff members.
Regarding #236; *Shrug* Hey, it's grex's choice. If grex doesn't want the
help, I can't force it to accept it. Obviously, I think your assessment of
me is flawed.
|
cyklone
|
|
response 239 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:04 UTC 2006 |
Well, I'm glad the remmers provided some transparency into the process. I
wonder, though, if "compatibility" with existing staff is as important as he
seems to assert. Speaking more globally, in terms of ANY new volunteers, and
not just cross and spooked, it seems to me they only need to be able to work
with one or two staff members. I dont' think someone like Marcus should be
able to cast a blackball in secret.
|
cross
|
|
response 240 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:04 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #238; Whoops; when I say ``Regarding #236'' that should be
``Regarding #234.''
|
cross
|
|
response 241 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:09 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #234; I guess I should make a technical point. It wouldn't matter
to 99.9% of grex users if grex's operating system was written in assembly
language with configuration files written in Klingon. Nor would it matter
if small gnomes verified passwords by comparing them to scrolls held in
jealously guarded caves deep within the depths of the earth. But, it *would*
matter to the people tasked to fix something if it broke. And then it would
matter to the users because some resource they used would be (potentially)
unavailable.
Oh well.
|
slynne
|
|
response 242 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:24 UTC 2006 |
resp:238 What do you mean by "the same can be said of some of the
present staff members"? Do you mean that you might not want to work with
some of them? FWIW, I can see why someone might feel that way too.
Anyhow, I too am glad that remmers had chosen to explain the procedure
for selecting staff because in all honesty, I didnt really understand it
totally before recently.
|
maus
|
|
response 243 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:34 UTC 2006 |
resp:241 Very nicely put. Just so you know, you can get the gnomes to
work harder of you stick a chocolate cake into the chassis once a month.
|
tod
|
|
response 244 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:42 UTC 2006 |
Mmm..chocolate
|
cross
|
|
response 245 of 480:
|
Dec 13 01:44 UTC 2006 |
Regarding #242; Me? I don't particularly care.... But some of the current
staff members could certainly be perceived as prickly.
I also suspect that, had anyone on grex ever actually met me in person, they'd
be amazed at how laid back I actually am.
Regarding #243; Hell, I'd like a chocolate cake RIGHT NOW.
|
slynne
|
|
response 246 of 480:
|
Dec 13 02:14 UTC 2006 |
resp:245 I wont argue with you on that point. I think that there are a
LOT of prickly folks around this joint.
FWIW, I suspect that if everyone got a chance to meet face to face over
some nice chocolate cake, we might all get along just fine.
|
cross
|
|
response 247 of 480:
|
Dec 13 03:09 UTC 2006 |
Oh yeah.... Maybe I should make some cookies.
|
keesan
|
|
response 248 of 480:
|
Dec 13 03:24 UTC 2006 |
I accidentally left my filter on verbose. About 90% of my spam is being
filtered before it hits spamassassin because it is in an E. European font
(koi-R cyrillic, Windows-1251 (or 50 or 52), has an embedded IMG, is sent with
mailer The Bat! (I think they specialize in pharmacy stuff) or contains the
string Price: in the message body (stock spams) but is in us-ascii or 8859-1.
I caught a few with javascript or text/css or bordercolor. Spamassassin got
most of the rest but I try to put it last after the other filters on the
assumption that it uses more resources. I also put my whitelists ahead of
spamassassin.
|
gelinas
|
|
response 249 of 480:
|
Dec 13 03:29 UTC 2006 |
(Re transparency: Much of the process was discussed in Item 12 of this
edition of coop, " Mom, Dad? Where do new Grex staffers come from?")
|
cross
|
|
response 250 of 480:
|
Dec 13 04:22 UTC 2006 |
I wasn't referring specifically to the process when it comes to adding grex
staff. I was referring to the decisions that staff makes.
|
cmcgee
|
|
response 251 of 480:
|
Dec 13 14:11 UTC 2006 |
It seems to me that a small group of staff members who work well with each
other (ie spooked and cross) only need to get along with a few other staff
members in order to be an asset. Perhaps staff members who are able to shrug
off immature comments (really, mic, I have to agree that "or else I'm leaving"
is petulant and childish).
A technical subcommittee, whose work is brought back to staff by the staff
member on the team, could accomplish a great deal without all the subcommittee
members being staff.
At an agile software company where I am working, the basic hiring standard
is "makes other people look good". Not grades in CS courses, not
demostrations of workable code, but simple kindergarten skills of working and
playing well with others.
These skills are teachable. Even folks with autistic tendencies can learn
them. But it seems to me that the lessons need to be absorbed by current
staff as well as potential staff. I suspect remmers has the ability to coach
people who are just beginning to acknowledge these are critical skills to
have. (In spite of his frustrated post above).
I don't know what it's going to take to get current core staff to start
helping newbies look good. I do believe that cross and mic have taken a great
deal of personal abuse for taking the initiative to get things moving. I also
believe that current staff take a lot of personal abuse when Grex doesn't meet
the fantasies of some users.
I offer my skills as an organizational development consultant, and team
training consultant to work with staff (current and potential) to see who has
the willingness to change behaviors so that Grex can continue to add staff,
and not wither because people here don't know how to make others look good.
The tipping point in changing staff culture does not have to wait for 100%
of current staff to learn these behaviors. It only takes a few of them to
make a big difference in whether or not Grex staff will begin to welcome
newcomers.
|
cyklone
|
|
response 252 of 480:
|
Dec 13 14:32 UTC 2006 |
Good points.
|