response 228 of 404:

Nov 4 02:42 UTC 1998

I would hesitate to quote Freud on a whole lot.  While he unveiled new ideas,
many of his theories have found disfavor lately.

I am surprised to hear that modern, primitive cultures practice homosexuality.
It must be why they are nearly extinct.  I would like to know the names of
those tribes, if you have it handy.

I suspect that the reason only the dominant wolves of a pack breed, is because
the others are last years pups.  Packs seldom get large.

Pigeons, geese and some other birds mate for life and both share rearing
duties.  Foxes both share the care of the young.

I asked for reasons why homosexuality benefited ... etc.  I got one good
reason. Population control.  The idea of a homosexual being creative has
nothing to do with homosexuality.  There were also a few questionable "facts".

Re:  M. I.  I only use tact when it is to my advantage.  I expect to change
no ones mind in this conference.  Apparently, I have stepped on your toes.
If you are a homosexual, say so.  Don't be ashamed.  I'll still like you, but I
will not like what you do.  I trust I haven't left anyone guessing about the
way I feel about things.  But some others haven't been so forth right.

Perhaps, I should have earlier said that I am unaware of knowing any
homosexuals."  However, I do know a guy who had his testicles removed and
began taking hormones.  Hey, what ever turns him on.

response 230 of 404:

Nov 4 04:14 UTC 1998

To agree with JanC towards the end, yes, I think everyone should have the same
rights to show affection.
 
Being a straight guy, I can put a picture of my sweetheart on my desk at work,
talk to my boss about the movie "we" went to, hold hands at a company picnic,
and kiss each other goodbye at the airport.
 
Could I do any of those things if I was in love with a guy? My gut tells me
that I probably could, and nearly everybody I'd encounter would be basically
okay with it. But our society is such that the potential negative reaction,
even if there's a slim chance of it happening, is so severe that most people
in the situation would tend to keep their feelings hidden, or at least held
back somewhat around strangers. And that's a shame.
 
But.
 
That said.
 
I'm COMPLETELY EFFING SICK of Anne Heche and Ellen Degeneres. Every time I've
seen them making a public appearance, they're SO in your face about clinging
to each other. When I see straight couples being that deliberate and
ostentatious about displaying themselves, usually it has been a sign of
trouble in the relationship. In other words, the couple is insecure about
their situation with each other, and so maybe if they convince someone else
that everything's fine with them, then perhaps they can convince themselves.
So they don't miss the opportunity to trumpet themselves to a single passerby.

response 232 of 404:

Nov 4 06:38 UTC 1998

I think the evolutionary aspects of homosexuality are quite simple - it
doesn't matter much, so there is little selection. What evolutionary
pressure would there be? The species propagates just fine. Having some
members that don't doesn't matter. There are many species that have
neuter members - the colonial inspect workers, for example. With all
of the complexity of sexual differentiation, I am not at all surprised
by a variety of outcomes. 

response 234 of 404:

Nov 4 07:13 UTC 1998

the struggle continues..

response 236 of 404:

Nov 4 13:54 UTC 1998

Now now, let's just let Kenton deconstruct himself here.  

response 238 of 404:

Nov 5 01:34 UTC 1998

re #237: as a species, aren't we one of the largest in number, if not the
largest?  I would suppose, therefore, that aggression is therefore selected
biologically to keep numbers down.

or maybe I'm not understanding this.

response 240 of 404:

Nov 5 05:37 UTC 1998

Not all homosexuals suck penises immediately after they're removed from an
naus. Few, I imagine, do.
You may wish to sit down for the next revelation, Kenton:
Some heterosexual women suck penises after they've been removed from an anus.
Few, I imagine, do.

This revelation will, quite possibly, hit you even harder, so try to take it
slowly:
There is *nothing* that a homosexual man does in homosexual sex that at lest
some heterosexual women don't do. Anal, fellatio, rimming, fisting, you name
itt, and some women will do it... some will even enjoy it.

In fact, short of mutual acts (such as fellating while being fellated), there
is nothing that homosexual men do that heterosexual couples don't do.

Oho! But gays do them *more*, and are more *extreme* and more *blatant*...

Pishposh, you're being naive. I could direct you to some very extreme
depictions on the web involving heterosexual acts. For the sake of our beloved
audience, I won't get graphic with the details. Suffice to say, homosexuals
hardly have the market cornered on unhealthy, unhygeinic sex (and nor are most
homosexuals unhealthy or unhygeinic, at least when educated).

response 242 of 404:

Nov 5 11:56 UTC 1998

(Brighn just said what I was going to say, only much better)

response 244 of 404:

Nov 5 14:53 UTC 1998

Kenton sez: "In my line of work I meet about 2 to 3  people a week, with 
whom I manage to establish a working relationship.  I have yet to meet 
an open and practicing homosexual."  

I'm wondering what kenton is expecting.  That instead of shaking his 
hand they're gonna grab his ass?  That they'll be dressed in pink suits 
and carry a purse instead of a briefcase?  

Lord knows I rarely introduce myself by saying, "Hi, my name is 
John--and I'm heterosexual."  And the subject rarely comes up during 
subsequent business conversations, especially if I realize or suspect 
that the person with whom I'm conducting business has deep disgust for 
my desires for and relationships with the opposite sex.

response 246 of 404:

Nov 5 21:12 UTC 1998

Not having met Kenton in person, I cannot say this for certain, but he may
also project an attitude that causes normally "open" gays to become
somewhat less so. I suspect that gays, much like other minorities, develop
a pretty good second sense of who is "cool" and who isn't . . . . 

response 248 of 404:

Nov 6 00:59 UTC 1998

I imagine that Kenton is still holding fast to a preconceived notion of how
homosexuals act, dress, have sex, etc., etc.  The misconception must be so
strong that maybe he has indeed witnessed some exceptions, but may have turned
a blind eye to it.

If Paul doesn't mind, I think bisexuals can be included in this case as far
as man-to-man sex is concerned.  For the sake of reason, there are some things
that people won't do.

Not all homosexuals have anal intercourse, or at least from articles I've
read.  Bisexuals can be choosy, too.  One of my friends told me man-to-man
anal sex and kissing didn't interest him, but fellatio and cuddling did.
Of course, I'm sure *all* men and women insist on having a penis washed before
it is stuck anywhere else-- well, most of them.  Some aren't so clean.  Some
only have anal intercourse in certain situations.  Some men like women to
penetrate them anally with a strap-on (forgive me if I offend some readers,)
and I don't think they are necessarily bisexual.

I've heard it explained that many hets are uncomfortable with the idea of
homosexual sex because they have to imagine themselves doing it to a degree,
consciously or unconsciously, and that is definitely uncomfortable to them.
But many of them forget that bis and homosexuals do many of the same things
heterosexual couples do-- cuddle, kiss, say kind and loving words, caress,
fondle, hug, massage, smile, laugh, cry, moan (when making love), argue,
delegate, share, help, desire children, etc., etc.

This brings me back to my point that not all homosexuals and bis fit the
stereotypes.  There are exceptions to the broad generalizations, although
there are often still factors that make so-called gaydar and bidar work-- yes,
I do believe that there are some observable differences between hets, bis and
gays, even when they're not having sex (although I think bis can be tricky).
But that doesn't necessarily describe it all-- all it means is that our
society still espouses the concept of gender-- that social roles must be
assigned according to sex.  Bis and homosexuals cross the barriers of those
roles, be they in a very few or many ways.

But part of that is for identification purposes.  We may dress, act, talk,
walk in various and intricate ways, but that is so we can recognize each
other.  I'm sure that the complexity grew out of some security from those who
would harm us-- things were coded to avoid scrutiny-- but some don't make an
effort to especially express themselves.  You wouldn't really guess they were
bi or gay unless you really got to know them, or if they told you.

Myself-- I'm sure I look fairly straight.  My clothes don't say much, although
if you really knew me, you might notice I'm happy when I'm fairly well-dressed
and color-coordinated.  I'm extremely artistic, but so are some very straight
people.

I don't follow any particular trends in anything, so it's hard to be pegged
with a certain sexuality.  Sure, I like listening to British New Romantic
bands, and I have the long bangs some of the old school cake boys used to
sport, but I'll bet some straights followed some of those trends, too. 
Yeah, I like to street/disco/club dance, and I'm a maniac on the floor,
but..so..?  Sometimes I have a beard, and sometimes I don't-- and the beard
has been full, a goatee, a Don Juan, George Michael-style-- and I'll bet that
throws a lot of people.  Some of the music I listen to is not just by gay
artists-- some are bi-- but does that necessarily say anything?

Hey, I used to be uncomfortable around the g/l/b community.  The gays were
sometimes flighty, the lesbians all seemed very leery of me, and I had no idea
who the bisexuals were.  But I still managed to make a few friends-- and boy,
was I surprised when I found out their sexuality as well as mine!  I used to
think that gays were either femmy or macho in a funky sort of way, that
lesbians were men-haters, and bisexuals were folks I hadn't figured out yet.
(Well gee, that's funny-- I am bisexual.)  My preconceived ideas started
crumbling when I met some warm, caring folks in the community who seemed
rather comfy with themselves, even when I met other g/l/b's who were obviously
a little neurotic.

The first woman to wipe away my tears was a lesbian.  Not even my mother had
done that for me until much later, I think.  Alder tried to act tough, but
she just melted when she saw me crying huddled up in a dark room.  After that,
she always checked up on me to make sure I was ok.  I appreciated that,
because I am manic-depressive and my mood swings hadn't been stabilized yet.

My sister has had a lot of ups and downs-- probably a 5 on a six-point Kinsey
scale who called herself lesbian for a while.  We used to fight a lot, but
she still trusted me enough to share some of her problems-- including the day
she met a man she could not only stand, but liked.

Strangely enough, most of the folks I came out to were in a similar
situation-- even if a few didn't admit it at the time.  The more people I met,
the more I realized the g/l/b community was just like the population at
large-- but the orientations of attraction were different.

I'm not really practicing, although I've had a few experiences.  Julie and
I joke about 'window shopping,' and we still make comments on sexy bodies or
either sex-- which gives others in same-sex relations pause sometimes. 
Really, it's kind of weird-- some folks think that because we're Mormon and
getting married, we're kinda supposed to disappear, or at least put on
blinders and then attach them to each other.  We were watching 'Celluloid in
the Closet' with our G.A.L.A. group, and the video showed a number of clips
of homosexuals in the movies.  One had a scene of a man taking his shirt off,
and I said, "Check out that six-pack!" to which Julie and I then chorused a
lustful "Ummm-hmmm."  Immediately, one of the girls said, "Hey-- you guys are
supposed to be getting married!"  Hmmm.  Well, we won't think sexual
thoughts-- we're pretty religious-- but it doesn't stop us from noticing. 
Julie tells folks, "You can look, but don't touch the goods."

So do I fit Kenton's notions or no?

response 250 of 404:

Nov 6 05:42 UTC 1998

There are wavelengths to all personal associations, and I'd imagine (having
no factual basis for this) that a homosexual person would act differently
around people they felt weren't as accepting.  It's just how things work. 
Some people that I know tend to be a bit raunchier, and I'm cool with that.
Some are fairly uptight, and I adapt.  Granted, with me my standard reaction
to all social situations is to shut up and sit in the corner, but there are
variations of that I use :)