response 226 of 561:

Jul 19 11:04 UTC 1996

9x9 is a lot of space for computers.  We're not doing much to use our current
space efficiently, and we *could* fit into some pretty small spaces with a
little organization.  The desk is a rather cumbersome thing for the small
amount of storage space it offers.

response 228 of 561:

Jul 19 13:29 UTC 1996

If the huge desk goes, I'd be willing to take it off your hands.  Even pay,
I suppose.

response 230 of 561:

Jul 19 18:36 UTC 1996

The more I hear about Huron space, the scarier it sounds.  The Red Cross Space
is by far our best option right now.

response 232 of 561:

Jul 19 20:04 UTC 1996

Does the Red Cross space have a lock on the door, or will random people with
access to the Red Cross building be able to mess with the hardware? 
Conversly, are Red Cross people on site 24 hours a day to let Grex staffers
in to the building?  Will grex be given keys to the building?

All tyhis talk about Red Cross reminds me that it's been a long time since
I've given blood.....

response 234 of 561:

Jul 19 21:09 UTC 1996

I believe HVCN would be very willing to provide private conferences to the
Red Cross as a way to enhance the Grex "proposal" to them. Keep your minds
open about negotiating with them. Just because they are offering the space
for free (sans cash rent) does not mean you have no power to bargain. You
can have a written agreement with consideration that will protect you. As a
matter of fact you should feel free to offer whatever HVCN services and
help needed for the Red Cross as part of your deal. Srw can bind us (HVCN)
here, if needed. I see some good things for Grex by tying in with the Red
Cross. It is a pretty substantial organization and, like shortwave radio, the
Internet has applications to disaster planning and reaction.

response 236 of 561:

Jul 19 21:15 UTC 1996

     [this is a couple of pages long, sorry]

   Valerie didn't quite explain the situation at West Huron fully,
or, Bill Vanfossn didn't explain it to her, but to me  on the
previous day when I was at the place.  Here goes:

   Bill V owns the place; the litigation is over the sale price of
the building, becuase the person who Bill "bought" it from decided
not to sell it.  This has been going on in court for *13 years now*,
so it isn't likely to be settled within a few forevers as far as
Grex goes.  Actually, the landlord has already won one suit, which
was that he had the right to buy the place.  The *current* litigation
is over the price of the building.

   Bill basically mentioned the worst of all possible outcomes,
namely that everything would go against him and he'd lose the
ability to keep the place.  He did that becuase he was very up
front with me about everything as we talked the first time I was
there.   ...I'm pretty wary of landlords, but this guy didn't
come across to me as offering mushrooms.  Many do.  Some of them
are so bad that during the phone calls I've been making to various
places, I've not wanted to go any farther than the phone call.
I've also been asking some of the people there at the building
what they think of him.  I haven't found anyone who has said
anything bad about him.  He owns the building that the Fireside
store is in too; next time I go there, I'll be asking one of the
owners.

   So, all in all, it is *not* a disaster, there.  We might still
elect not to go there, but there is a lot that the place has to 
offer.  I'll go through them, as I see them, then go through the
negatives (+ and - points)

Positives...

  + Real construction: even the ceiling is real, not just false
panels in place.  We wouldn't have to build anything to move in
there.

  + Actual heating *and air conditioning*.  It was wonderfully
cool in the room as we visited; thats going to help with our
heat problem.  Bill mentioned that he could simply turn off the
heater water for that room during the winter, letting us make
our own heat.  We could then decide to have the external heat
turned back on if needed, though I doubt it.

  + A real ventilation system installed.  Years ago there was a
tennant who had severe allergy problems and needed enough fresh
air that a ventilation system was installed.  That exists today;
we could bring in outside air.  I mentioned to Bill that the
current blower motor, whatever it is, might not be enough for us;
he said that he could install a larger unit.

  + A person who we can deal with, and who doesn't charge a huge
amount of rent.  While observing the place, I saw that the building
was not "pretty", but was entirey functional.  I didn't see evidence
of water damage in the walls / ceilings, for example.  Considering
that we need a good place as opposed to a pretty place, to live in,
it seems reasonable to me.

  + Physically secure.  The room has no windows, its own lock, and
of course a locked door after 5PM on weekdays.  We can install a
new cylinder on our door if we want, Bill said.

  + Good infrastrusture.  We need to look at the power in the
building with a scope to make sure, but things looked good.  I
didn't see anything flickering in the lights (try starting at
lights in the Colonade shopping center if you don't think thats
a problem), and the phone lines coming into the build are *huge*.
There is an entire trunk of either 150 or 200 lines coming directly
into the building with all the attendant patch panels in place. We
We could quite easily have our own panel of 100 potential lines,
there is that much excess cacacity.  The power situation was the
last thing that I was potentiall worried about; I asked Bill if
we could get two 20A circuits in the room, and he said yes.  Note:
this is something that we still have to investigate; we'd need to
verify this finally before comitting ourselves.

Negatives...

  - Not a standard lease.  Bill said that he'd be willing to give
us a notice of some 3 or 4 months advance notice for us, in the
event we have to leave.

  - Owner engaged in a legal battle.  Worst case scenerio being
that we'd have a new landlord and our rent would likely double.


   Since people are freaked out about the negatives, let me talk
about them.  They aren't anywhere near as bad as you'd think.  let
me explain...

   First, about not having a standard lease: it doesn't help us that
much, in terms of needing to move.  Having had friends who've had
businesses in the Ann Arbor area for a while now, I can remember
several cases in which they were infored that they'd have to move
at the end of their leases, *within 30 days*.  In other words, they
were told that they'd have to leave on the first day of their last
months rent.  I can think of four cases where this has happened,
causing much panic in the 700 some hours they had in which to move.
I can think of one case where the landlord was nice enough to give
6 months notice, and once where a friend was told at the start of
his yearly agreement that this would be the last year.  So from my
experience, 2/3s of them got 30 days notice.  I asked Bill, and got a
positive response to a 3 or 4 month notice.  That isn't bad.

   Second, from helping deal with commercial landlords, I can state
that the single most important issue with them is their personal
honesty and integrity.  When they don't have that, nothing else
matters.  You'll get BS from them ten different ways.  ...And the
only recourse is to sue them--which is something that Grex really
can't afford to think about too much.  After having seen one of
the areas major landlords screw people over, to the extent that he
finally got an article about him in the Ann Arbor Observer, I
think that this is really the most important thing about them.

   This is also why I haven't been as upset about the dealings
at the house where the Dungeon is, as some other staff people.
I *KNOW* that things are often as strange as shit--in the rental
world, I have *no* beleif that things have to be perfect in order
to put a business somewhere.  I know better.  As long as we can
deal with the problems that face us where we are, then we're OK.
Until the dear city of Ann Arbor decided to mess with us again,
I thought that we could stay here.  Acutally, I still do.  But
in all likelyhood circumstances are going to force us to move.

   I want to warn people right now, that *there is no such thing*
as a "perfect" place for Grex to move to.  I hope people will keep
that in mind.

   Third, which ties in with the previous paragraphs, the legal
crap that Bill has been going through doesn't "bother" me directly.
This type of dreck happens all the time.  It also moves with the
speed of a glacier.  I know of one case where a local company 
renewed its one year lease even though the property was under
some sort of forclosure thing; when I asked why they'd rented
their again, the owner said that in all likelyhood he'd be able
to be there for another year while all the laywers involed made
more money.  He was right too--the building wasn't transfered for
18 more months.  In Bill's case, one of his judges (Jim Conlin) died
on them making even more delays.  So, we *might*, and I mean *might*
have to find a new place to move to *at some point*.  That doesn't
bother me, much.  We *always* run that risk, folks.

   Forth, our being able to leave that spot quickly has a
very important advangate for us.  Eventually, we may strike
it rich and find a place that has good connectivity, and
would like some more exposure to the world.  If that ever
happens, *we can't sit where ever we are till our current lease
runs out*.  If we do, we'll have lost that deal.  Being able
to be agile might well be very important, if we can make
a deal with some ISP or otherwise well connected site.

   Now, if we get an offer from an ISP soon, I'd go with that.
However, from the technical standpoint I think that West
Huron is the best choice right now.  I really don't like the
idea of losing 761-3000.

response 238 of 561:

Jul 19 22:26 UTC 1996

   Did you read what I said above?  I don't think so.

response 240 of 561:

Jul 19 23:19 UTC 1996

Yeah, the Red Cross could just throw us out whenever they felt like it...

response 242 of 561:

Jul 20 04:01 UTC 1996

The Red Cross would save us $60 a month over West Huron.  That's about 10%
of our member donations.  That's *a lot*.  Any businessman knows how important
it is to keep overhead low.  It's more important for Grex.

Suppose the Red Cross throws us out after a year.  We would still have saved
$720 over the cost of being in West Huron.  That's enough to pay for the cost
of another move.  But, in fact, the Red Cross is probably less likely to boot
us out than West Huron is (raising our rent would be the equivalent of booting
us out).  Financially, the Red Cross location make much better sense.  $60
a month is a lot of money on Grex's budget.  Too much by far to pay for the
dubious security afforded by a more "businesslike" agreement.  Since when does
Grex need "businesslike," much less pay through the nose for it?

response 244 of 561:

Jul 20 06:42 UTC 1996

how much would it cost to keep 761-3000 (only) and  have it 'extended'
(don't know what the technical term is) so that calls to it would
end up at the red cross? 
 
i do apprecaite teh research steve has invested in the huron space, and
it does not sound anywhere near as scary as before. (careful investigation
has a way fo doing that ...<g>).
  
and  yet, for the  $$$, the red cross place would allow grex to 'bank'
the rent reduction if something later/better came along. 
  
i suspect that grex should, anyway, create a 'moving bank' reserve of $$$
and not touch it until necessary. (suggest $1000 reserve)
  

response 246 of 561:

Jul 20 10:51 UTC 1996

That's why we would not do it. The plan for the Red Cross Space
(unless someone can come up with a better plan) is this:

(1) Move to ARCWC and start using a new number 
(I dunno if 677-3000 is available, we'll have to look into it)

(2) At the same time install 761-3000 into a staffer's home or apt. to be 
determined. A computer and modem would be configured to answer the phone
and explain in ascii that Grex has moved to (say) 677-3000 -  cost $42
Presumably the use of the computer and modem can be borrowed.

(3) Run this way for two months and then drop 761-3000 permanently.
Cost $40.

Total cost $82. 

response 248 of 561:

Jul 20 15:47 UTC 1996

I like the idea that Huron has the wires, air conditioning, etc in place. 
How much would it cost (volunteer effort and pro electrician etc) to bring
the RC site up to those standards?  Let's try to get some dollar figures
attached to the costs and benifits of the sites.

What's this wil grex promising RC that we will let them do something with
HVCN?  I know that HVCN has been friendly with grex since before day one, but
did I miss something here?  What does HVCN get out of a better location for
grex?  Some day when HVCN gets hardware independant of izzy, are they going
to want to co-locate with grex?

If grex takes Huron or RC, is Arbornet going to snap up the other one?