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Author Message
25 new of 254 responses total.
lumen
response 205 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 10 22:11 UTC 1999

Whoops, I was afraid I hadn't clarified things.  We want to have kids, 
but the time isn't right at this point in time.  I would have paid the 
matter little importance except that it sparked another discussion that 
I didn't want to get into, and felt was unwarranted.  What I meant was I 
told Julie after John's post was made that this was a matter I wasn't 
comfortable discussing in public, since I know that it is very painful 
for us right now.

Julie is still much more trusting than I and is still getting hurt.  I 
have done the same, so what I meant to say was I told her once again to 
be careful what she shares, because, speaking of triggers and baggage 
aside from the conference, as Paul put it, we have plenty ourselves.

Please excuse me if I speak rashly; things are very difficult now and 
will be for quite a while.  
bookworm
response 206 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 07:47 UTC 1999

Does anybody have any idea how often it's snowed over here?

Do you realize that, if it didn't melt during the course of the day, 
we'd probably have about a foot, maybe two.

How 'bout you guys?  I hear you are still waiting for the first penguin 
of spring to waddle through town  :)

(PS.  Yes, I'm deliberately changing the subject.  Somebody take me up 
on it.)
(PPS.  Thanks for standing up for me, Paul, Jon.  Your efforts are 
greatly appreciated)
gypsi
response 207 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 15:17 UTC 1999

I love penguins.
orinoco
response 208 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 20:24 UTC 1999

An appropriate confession for the coming-out-stories item. :)
bookworm
response 209 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 11 22:38 UTC 1999

Yeah.  Perfect.

I like buttermilk.
i
response 210 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 02:44 UTC 1999

What interesting uses could a kinky imagination find for buttermilk pancakes?
bookworm
response 211 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 04:40 UTC 1999

Mmmm.  Sounds tasty.  Lemme think about it.



Jon seems to think it would be useful for rubbing. (need I say more?)
lumen
response 212 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 04:51 UTC 1999

Uh, I forgot clothing.  Hey, I think it could be done.
bookworm
response 213 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 07:14 UTC 1999

What's kinky about Buttermilk pancakes used as clothing?
orinoco
response 214 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 21:28 UTC 1999

Any food item used as clothing, or vice versa, is inherently kinky.  Deal with
it.
void
response 215 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 12 23:16 UTC 1999

   do penguins use buttermilk pancakes for anything?
i
response 216 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 13 18:13 UTC 1999

Re: #214 - Somehow, i don't find clothing items used as food kinky.  Am
i erotically impaired, or do i just need better recipes for old socks? :) 

Re: #213 - Well, if your lover is sufficiently hungry for buttermilk
pancakes and thinks you're an acceptable substitute for a plate....if
you soak 'em good with syrup and butter first, he'll have to work at
it to lick his "plate" clean....
keesan
response 217 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 14 04:50 UTC 1999

I am curious if people treat you differentaly as a married couple than they
did before you married.  (But do not feel obligated to answer, of course).
Or if you act differently, such as not feeling that you can spend time
individually with other friends.
orinoco
response 218 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 14 22:11 UTC 1999

Can you second a question?  If you can, I do.  Otherwise, um...  well, I'll
get back to you :)
jazz
response 219 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 14 23:49 UTC 1999

        Oddly enough, there's more difference, socially, when a straight couple
is married.  There are certain social conventions that married straight
couples tend to fall into;  among other things, children, homesteading, and
associating with other couples.  Gay couples seem much more flexible about
these things, and less likely to fall into social patterns.
lumen
response 220 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 15 22:29 UTC 1999

Well, from what I've read, when gay or lesbian couples (I'm assuming 
John was using gay in a collective sense) adopt children or conceive by 
artificial insemination, the responsibilities aren't evenly divided as a 
whole.  Often, the responsibilities are divided in much the same way as 
heterosexual couples do.

I'm sure Paul has much more to say on this, but expectations of a 
married bisexual couple can be very vague.  There's the question of 
polyamory.  With Julie and I, it seemed like a lot of people assumed we 
were forsaking any sort of alternative lifestyle, considering our 
religion, and even our outward appearance.

We were watching 'Celluloid in the Closet' once with our G.A.L.A. group 
when we were engaged (I apologize if I've mentioned this already).  
There was a scene from a movie where the guy took off his shirt and we 
both commented on his lovely torso.  One of the girls in the group who 
had been raised Mormon yelped, "But you guys are supposed to be getting 
married!"  Okay, so we don't do the moves, but we do make a bit of 
harmless window shopping (or does that lead to trouble?)

We have a friend that wants to be more a part of our lives, but there's 
just too many problems there.  Besides a conflict of faith (that our 
faith doesn't allow it, that she is not of the same faith that we are 
and may never accept that part of us), we're just having a rough time 
keeping things together, Julie and I, without having to add her in.  Any 
counselor or mental health professional will tell you it's difficult to 
maintain a balance in a relationship with more than 2 people.
i
response 221 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 04:30 UTC 1999

2 people -> 1 relationship you gotta keep healthy
3 people -> 3 relationships you gotta keep healthy
4 people -> 6 relationships you gotta keep healthy
Stable larger groups where people have real relationships are 99.99% fantasy.
jazz
response 222 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 16 13:19 UTC 1999

        I noted that the one inaccuracy in Chasing Amy is that Banky assumed
that if Alyssa (the formerly "lesbian" title character) were to admire a woman
in a mall, that it'd drive Holden crazy.  I've never seen anyone really be
bothered by that kind of behaviour.  It tends to be an additional intimacy.
brighn
response 223 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 17 19:31 UTC 1999

Your math is wrong, i. It's:
2 people = 1 relationship
3 people = 4 relationships (3 2-person relationships, 1 3-person
relationship)
4 people = 11 relationships (6 2-person, 4 3-person, 1 4-person)
  
(Yes, there *is* a dynamic difference between a 3-person relationship and the
three component 2-person relationships.)

I've heard of one fairly stable 5-person relationship (tat's 26
interrelationships!)

But it's not just the number of relationships that's relevant, it's the
consequences of a relationship failing. If a two-person relationship fails
entirely, the parties walk away, but if two people in a three-person
relationship become total enemies, that leaves the third person in the lurch
(and in a position of choosing between them, or walking away from them both).

OTOH, in my own experience, if a two-person relationship *falters* but doesn't
fail entirely, there's a better-than-average likelihood that the parties will
give up anyway, whereas if two people in a three-person relationship have a
faltering relationship, the third person can act as a temporary bond until
the problem passes (so long as that third person knows how to manage the
tension and potential jealousies).

Conclusions:
-- Contrary to popular belief, relationships involving more than two people
ARE more stable than two-person relationships (assuming the parties can
overcome cultural baggage against poly relationships)
-- when a poly relationship fails, it FAILS, bigtime, not pretty at all

Stable poly relationships are not 99.99% fantasy. They're difficult because
of cultural pressures against them, but if the parties involved are committed,
they can be functional.
jazz
response 224 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 18 14:36 UTC 1999

        The n!/n factorial rule only applies to secure IP tunnels. :)

        I'd say that behaviorology and psychology has a lot more to do with
the success and failure of *any* relationship than math. :)
keesan
response 225 of 254: Mark Unseen   Mar 19 11:21 UTC 1999

I grew up in a 4-person relationship - two adults, two children.  Staying
together for the sake of the children is supposed to be fairly common, is this
a whole lot different with 3 or more adults?
lumen
response 226 of 254: Mark Unseen   Jun 18 19:05 UTC 1999

I've been becoming more and more public, because although I'm reserved, I have
a rather 'I have nothing to hide' perspective these days.  Besides, I'm tired
of pussyfooting around it and I figure it's time to be more open.

I think you'll remember the incident I shared about coming out to my Students
With Exceptionalities class.  It felt like talking to a wall.  My teacher
wasn't terribly responsive-- I was having a difficult time tying it to
teaching, since it was a serendipity assignment.  The class was even more
apathetic, except for a very intellectual man whom everyone thought talked
too much and unabashedly wore Native-American-style jewelry and had danced
ballet for a while.  (He said he didn't care what anyone thought anymore since
he was older-- 40-- and he was beyond that).

I found that here people think of declarations of sexuality in about the same
category as declaring your favorite food.  We mentioned in Agora about our
experience of visiting the Common Language bookstore.

We picked up two buttons that said, "Nobody *believes* I'm bisexual."  We
consider that amusing since we attend a university in a cow town.  The Women's
Resource center is really the only main front for GALA; our events rarely
permeate public consciousness.  It's almost like our meetings are underground.
People whine about lack of sociality, lack of tolerance in the community, and
worry obsessively about offending others.  So aside from GALA, Julie and I
are relatively invisible.  Of course, bisexuals on the whole are invisible
to the group, especially if they're dating opposite sex partners, or married.
We make a point that we are an obvious difference.  I know of another bisexual
MOTOS couple-- I've seen them around at the film festivals, but then, the fact
they're musicians is another thing.  The glb community in the Music dept. is
fairly low-profile since they're so busy.

But I digress.  I also picked up a leather pride flag magnet for our
refrigerator, and a bi pride necklace-- another rare thing.  (Another one of
my beliefs is that bisexuals need to form a more distinctive identity-- I
didn't identify with the Coalition too well for a while).  Most people wear
the rainbow freedom rings.  Anyway, it was funny talking with the lady working
at the register-- she asked if I knew what the flag meant.  I said I did--
I just left my leathers at home.  She explained a lot of customers didn't,
and they'd come back upset once they learned what it really was :)  She added
a lot of people didn't know what the one with the bear was either-- they
thought it was neat or cute or something.  Technically being a bear myself--
big and hairy, I said I understood.  I said I figured teddy bears in leather
got a lot of people (heh heh).  (Actually, a friend of mine who claims to have
been a butch on the leather scene years ago says I'm just a cubbie.  I still
find it weird, hearing this from an effeminate-sounding obese older man, but
I guess things can radically change.)

I have yet to be in some big event, but I do find myself surprised at freely
admitting my sexuality in some of my classes.  I took Children's Literature
last quarter, and when we talked about censorship, I mentioned the fact that
wonderful kids' books on families with homosexual parents and relatives are
banned and *not* allowed in the classroom.  Teachers and librarians to
children of such families have to go to great lengths to get these books to
them.

But the transition has been interesting.
gypsi
response 227 of 254: Mark Unseen   Jun 18 23:18 UTC 1999

It was weird for me to wear my rainbow necklace in public for the first
week, but I got used to it and got over the "everyone is looking at it"
paranoia.  I like seeing people wear stuff like that because it indicates that
they are open and comfortable with who they are.  I never had a problem
wearing my pentacle pin or any other "pagan" jewelry, so I figured this should
be the same way.  Just go with it and fuck everyone else and what they think.
<g>
lumen
response 228 of 254: Mark Unseen   Jun 19 03:05 UTC 1999

ah, but my point was the rainbow necklace is beginning to become a little more
common-- almost fashionable.  There is a leather pride variation as well as
a bi one, but you rarely see them.
gypsi
response 229 of 254: Mark Unseen   Jun 19 08:40 UTC 1999

I'm seeing more purple triangles, too.  It used to be I only saw pink.
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