response 186 of 216:

Nov 13 18:35 UTC 2000

I'm sorry, but in designing the machines, engineers chose dimensions and
operating protocols so that, in their opinion (or by experimentation)
errors would be reduced. These are all "built in features to reduce
errors". A machine is NOT "just is" - it was designed. However all design
is compromise, so not all possible errors will be addressed in the design.
Hence, "they have *some* built in features to reduce counting errors, but
*by definition* they cannot have more than humans".

response 188 of 216:

Nov 13 18:47 UTC 2000

A machine just is.  I don't care if you think the design makes some major
factor in the operation of the machine, it thinks A+B=C because you tell it
that.  You say what the factors are and it does them.  To precision.  You
might think they reduce the number compared to human error, but it does what
it is programmed to do.  No more, no less.  A wheel spins.  Now you can think
of the width, the tread, and the diameter in getting to your distance, but
to the wheel, it turns.  That is the function.  It goes round and round.
So if you want to say that because of the design of the machine and the
comprimises made within, the machine cannot verify a partial punch because
they couldn't allow for it....machine says "Punch in A=A...Partial punch in
A= ...Nonpunch in A= ...."  Because that's what you told it.  

Engineers want it to produce the end result with the lowest amount of
perceeved errors.  Generally designs are made up, programs are written, and
then debugging or error correction occur, not before.  They also want a
machine that can do the job with as little personal handling and programming
time as possible.  A box is a box until you tell it that it has another
function and it can understand that.  

response 190 of 216:

Nov 13 20:03 UTC 2000

Mary, if a machine just "is", then there is no use for engineers.  
However, while a wheel does spin, there are always potential errors that 
may occur.  This isn't just for computers but also for various machines 
where there are a lot of variables.  Shit happens.

I really can't believe how crazy this election is versus previous years.

response 192 of 216:

Nov 13 21:14 UTC 2000

the judge today ruled against bush's request for an injunction to
stop the manual recounts.  Assuming the manual recounts go forward, there
is a strong chance Gore will end up winning and be president.  The Bush
people did not play their cards right, they let the deadlines for
requesting manual recounts pass in the counties where Bush is ahead. But
thats the way it goes.  

Of course, if Gore wins, there is all but guaranteed to be a no holds
barred rematch with Bush in 2004.

response 194 of 216:

Nov 13 21:19 UTC 2000

Jenn, I was saying that even though you may design a machine to do it's
function, once you make it, it does what it's told, good intentions to the
side.  It just is.  A calculator will not balance your checkbook or find lost
money for you.  It does simple math equations (dependingon the model you have,
some do complex graphing and equations).  But based upon the emotions and
intent that you use this machine does not give it the qualities you desire.
The voting machines count dots, for the punch cards.  Not partial dots, not
semi dots, and they are supposed to reject double dots where there should be
one.  If you want to say it is to make less errors on the part of human
counting, fine, but the machine just counts dots.

response 196 of 216:

Nov 13 22:08 UTC 2000

well Gore would make the argument that how do you call him a bad
candidate when (fact) he got more votes than any other democratic
candidate in history.  and won the popular vote.  I think Bush is so
popular with the gop insiders that he would easily get re-nominated, even
after being on the sidelines for four years.

response 198 of 216:

Nov 14 01:49 UTC 2000

In a properly designed system, the machine *should* be more accurate.
It won't forget to carry the ones, drop a pile of cards behind the pop
machine, or get drunk and have a headache.  In an improperly designed
system, the humans are going to be more accurate, because they can
examine the partially pressed out chad, see the mark made by the voter's
pen, and make a "best guess" as to who the voter intended to vote for.
The machine hasn't got millions of years of evolution behind any guess
it might make, all it has got is consistency based on the relatively
lousy sensors its designers gave it, and the arbitrary mathematical
constraints on the output of that sensor that its designers programmed
into it.  The humans may be victims of boredom.  The machine can be a
victim of "garbage-in, garbage-out", and unless it's really dramatically
wrong, nobody will even notice.

response 200 of 216:

Nov 14 03:32 UTC 2000

Someone from Palm Beach County said on NPR tonight said they hope
to have the manual recount done by 9 pm Sunday. The secretary of state
is insisting on all results being turned in by 5 pm Tuesday.

response 202 of 216:

Nov 14 05:08 UTC 2000

Nixon and Gore also have unappealing public personalities in common.

Cleveland won in 1892, yes, but he could not have been nominated again
in 1896 -- even if he had wanted to -- because the Democratic Party was
taken over by the silver advocates by then.  Cleveland was what they
used to call a Gold Democrat.

response 204 of 216:

Nov 14 05:14 UTC 2000

OK, so I don't know the dates so many started their service.  Mentioning '96
and silver reminds me of "you shall not crucify man on a cross of gold"
(roughly).  Which means that was the year McKinley won, so Cleveland's terms
were 1874 and 1892?  With Harrison winning in 1878?

response 206 of 216:

Nov 14 05:18 UTC 2000

Re 204.  Cleveland was elected in 1884 and served 1885-89.  Benjamin
Harrison was elected (with fewer popular votes than Cleveland) in 1888
and served 1889-93.  Cleveland was again elected in 1892 and served
1893-97.  1896 was the year of the "Cross of Gold" speech, and William
Jennnings Bryan was nominated by the Democrats; McKinley was elected,
and served 1897-1901.  McKinley was re-elected in 1900 and assassinated
in 1901.  Theodore Roosevelt became president when McKinley died.

Clear as mud?

1884 was the year of "Ma, Ma, Where's My Pa?" (Cleveland was said to
have fathered a child out of wedlock) and "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion"
(an anti-Catholic minister who supported Blaine said that the Democratic
Party was the party of those 3 R's, and helped tip Irish Catholics into
Cleveland's camp).

response 208 of 216:

Nov 14 05:55 UTC 2000

I don't think Bush would necessarily be the choice nominee in the next
election, should he lose;  the fervor over John McCain is bound to turn *some*
GOP heads.  Especially after such unspectacular candidates failed to press
their numerous opportunities to take a clear lead.