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Grex > Diversity > #12: Bush to join fight against UM's affirmative action program |  |
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| 25 new of 232 responses total. |
gull
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response 182 of 232:
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Jan 27 23:45 UTC 2003 |
Re #176: I can see already that #2 is your escape clause. You'd
probably consider any program that had any effect at all to be "too
intrusive."
Re #181: I'll point out once again that the points awarded based on race
are *not* "higher than the rest", and that won't be true no matter how
many times people repeat it. Athletes, for example, also get 20 points.
I think people on the right are hoping that if they repeat this bit of
misinformation enough times it will attain "Big Lie" status and be
assumed to be true.
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tsty
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response 183 of 232:
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Jan 28 00:26 UTC 2003 |
rght, athletes (color blind) may be given 20 points for EARNING a high-MERIT
position through WORK as a younger teenager toward a COMPETITION-based
position against ALL (color-blind) others. hey, tht's like real life! oh-wow.
granted, those points are not higher than skin-color points but they
sure as hell are WORTH points. of what 'worth' is skin color?
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jep
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response 184 of 232:
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Jan 28 00:49 UTC 2003 |
re resp:182: Any program which takes away 3 whatevers from general
Americans to give 2 whatevers to minorities is going to be too
intrusive for me.
In this discussion it's college degrees, and that's just about what the
U-M does do. The university gives 3 general population degrees to
minorities in order to get 2 degrees for the minorities. (Affirmative
action minorities drop out that much more than students admitted
without the bonus.) I think that's not good. In fact, I think it's
awful.
Are you having trouble countering what I say? You appear to have
decided, since I disagree with you, to just assume it's got to be bad
faith on my part no matter what I say unless I change my position to
match yours. I think I've supported what I've said well enough, and I
think my position is pretty reasonable. I don't think I've given you
any cause to attack my character or good will. I'm disappointed that
you've dropped away from your generally good statements and gone in
that direction.
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tod
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response 185 of 232:
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Jan 28 00:49 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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tod
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response 186 of 232:
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Jan 28 00:50 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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jep
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response 187 of 232:
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Jan 28 00:50 UTC 2003 |
re resp:183: It's worth 20 points.
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scg
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response 188 of 232:
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Jan 28 01:08 UTC 2003 |
Have you done an ananalysis to show whether the dropout rates are higher for
minority enrollees who wouldn't have been admitted without the bonus points
than for minority enrollees who would have been admitted anyway, or is that
just an assumption?
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gull
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response 189 of 232:
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Jan 28 02:19 UTC 2003 |
Re #183: Of what use is athletic ability in an academic setting? None.
It's really hypocritical to dismiss the idea of minority preferences because
they interfere with having a true meritocracy, then on the other hand award
points to people who have a completely irrelevent skill. Especially when
the graduation rate for athletes is quite low, probably lower than for
minorities. Apparently a lot athletes don't even bother to attend classes.
Re #184: I just feel you've crafted your position carefully so you can rule
out anything that would benefit minorities without actually coming out and
*saying* it. If that's your position you should have the courage to say so
instead of trying to weasel around it.
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rcurl
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response 190 of 232:
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Jan 28 04:59 UTC 2003 |
Re #184: in addition...you say "Any program which takes away 3 whatevers
from general Americans to give 2 whatevers to minorities is going to be
too intrusive for me."
You appear to see no NEED in our society to assist members of deeply
discriminated against minorities. Have you no concern at all for their
status in society, and their opportunities for educational opportunities
that might be denied them because of the discrimination against their
group?
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scg
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response 191 of 232:
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Jan 28 06:08 UTC 2003 |
Hold on a minute here. I read John's comments as saying that a program that
takes away more from one group than it gives to another isn't ok, while not
inlcuding anything about programs that transfer equal amounts of benefit, or
provide more benefit to minorities than they take away from "general
Americans." We can certainly disagree about which category Affirmative Action
falls into, but it's a leap to go from that to having no concern at all about
the damage done by discrimination.
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void
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response 192 of 232:
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Jan 28 06:18 UTC 2003 |
2.5 times as many black students as whites flunk or drop out of U
of M.
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scott
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response 193 of 232:
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Jan 28 14:15 UTC 2003 |
So what conclusion might one draw from #192, then?
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gull
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response 194 of 232:
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Jan 28 15:08 UTC 2003 |
I'm guessing that the conclusion we're supposed to draw is that those
students had no business getting into college.
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johnnie
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response 195 of 232:
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Jan 28 16:20 UTC 2003 |
"or drop out" could be read as "can't afford tuition".
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slynne
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response 196 of 232:
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Jan 28 16:31 UTC 2003 |
"or drop out" could also be read as "got tired of living in a sea of
white faces" or any number of other things.
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jp2
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response 197 of 232:
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Jan 28 16:43 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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jazz
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response 198 of 232:
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Jan 28 17:06 UTC 2003 |
I see your point, but you know it's tougher to get along in a group
of people of a different culture than you. Race doesn't really seem to
matter, though a lot of people deliniate their culture based on their race.
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jep
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response 199 of 232:
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Jan 28 18:25 UTC 2003 |
re resp:189: If that were my position, I would say so. Do you often
make such assumptions about people? You do realize you're just
categorizing me like this:
"He disagrees with me, and I *know* I'm right, so there must be
something wrong with, not just his arguments, but the man himself."
I wish you were comparing arguments instead of doing that. This isn't
supposed to be about defending *me*. I think you usually do a better
job defending your position than you've done recently in this item. I
think you need to examine why it is you don't respect me or what I
say. It's clear that you don't.
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slynne
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response 200 of 232:
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Jan 28 18:53 UTC 2003 |
Re#197 I would have no problem with it if you had dropped out of
college because there were too many black people at the school for your
comfort level.
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jp2
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response 201 of 232:
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Jan 28 19:48 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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jazz
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response 202 of 232:
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Jan 28 19:50 UTC 2003 |
Spend more time in Ann Arbor. The people wearing patchouli are really
quarterbacks - they fake left and go right.
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jep
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response 203 of 232:
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Jan 28 19:54 UTC 2003 |
re resp:188, resp:190-192: I am assuming that equally prepared students
of different ethnic backgrounds succeed on about the same level. I recognize
this may not be completely valid, but I have reasons for it.
I'm interested in collegiate sports, and am aware that athletic
scholarship students don't succeed on the same level as other
students. That's true at U-M; it's true almost universally among
scholarship athletes in revenue-producing programs (football, men's
basketball and ice hockey). Among Big Ten schools, the difference in
graduation rates is in the ballpark of 20%.
There are a lot of reasons why scholarship athletes don't do well in
school. The guys who transfer, leave school to go pro, fail out of
school or just quit are counted as "not graduating". Those who remain
for 4 or 5 years have lengthy amounts of time for practice, they travel
a lot for their sport, and they concentrate more on athletics than
academics.
And, they don't have to meet the same academic requirements as other
students. They may very well have been passed through their classes in
high school because they're star athletes. It happens.
I don't want to start another argument about the value of an athletic
education. I want to establish that I'm aware of, and interested in,
some students who haven't got the same academic background as the
general student body.
NCAA statistics for 6 year graduation rates for all 1995 freshmen:
all student athletes: 60%
all students: 58%
black male student athletes: 43%
black male students: 34%
white male student athletes: 59%
white male students: 59%
Source: http://www.ncaa.org/news/2002/20020930/active/3920n01.html
One might conclude that black male athletes come from a more similar
background to white male athletes, than black students in general
compared to white students, and so they have more similar performance.
It's still not as good as white male students or white male student
athletes.
I guess there are lots of explanations possible for these numbers.
Keep in mind they count all athletes, not just revenue athletes, but
here are some numbers from football and basketball:
Revenue athletes graduation rates from 1994:
white football: 62% (better than white students in general)
black football: 35% (better than black students in general)
white basketball: 51% (worse than white students in general)
black basketball: 28% (worse than black students in general)
I'm not sure if any of this supports my contention that academic
success is probably more proportional to background and preparation
than race, but it was fun looking it up.
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russ
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response 204 of 232:
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Jan 28 23:50 UTC 2003 |
Re #190: If the minorities didn't get admission to the more-exclusive
institution (than their skills justify), they'd instead be admitted to
less-exclusive institutions and have similar graduation rates to the
rest of the population going there.
Being admitted to EMU or Ferris instead of Michigan is not evidence of a
lack of concern. If the reason is because the student does not have the
academic qualifications to succeed at Michigan, it is quite the opposite.
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scg
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response 205 of 232:
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Jan 29 01:53 UTC 2003 |
I don't have a cite for this, but I remember hearing a few years ago about
a study showing that UM minority students tended not to do as well as white
students with identical high school records, SAT scores, and other qualifying
information.
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rcurl
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response 206 of 232:
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Jan 29 06:01 UTC 2003 |
Re #204: don't forget that an objective of AA is to have diversity for
the good of everyone's education.
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