response 18 of 41:

Jun 28 13:43 UTC 2007

resp:16 WEll, I always say that if what you are doing makes you happy, 
then it doesnt matter. This is why I bite my tongue when people talk to 
me about homeopathic remedies that have no basis in science. IF it 
makes them feel better and healthier than more power to them. I mean 
what you are doing is making you feel good, Jeanne. So there is NOTHING 
wrong with that. And for all I know, for you, being thinner is 
healthier. Everyone is different and everyone needs to make their own 
choices. 

Part of the issue is that certain behaviors which are healthy cause 
people to lose weight which puts them at the lower end of their natural 
range. But is the weight loss itself that is healthy or is it the 
getting off the couch which is healthy? No one really knows for sure. 
The only study I have seen that corrects for things like activity 
levels showed that fat active people were more healthy than thin 
inactive people. 

But of course we could go around and around on this issue. Unlike the 
tobacco issue or global warming, there is no scientific concensious 
about the effects of obesity. There are studies that show it is bad, 
there are studies that show only really extreme obesity is bad, there 
are studies that show being between 1-100 lbs overweight is GOOD, etc. 
None of the media reporting on the subject seems to give meaningful 
statistics. Usually they say things like "Obesity increases risk of 
breast cancer" without mentioning what the increased risk is. 

Anyways, one of the things I find interesting is a debate going on in 
the "fat blogosphere" about how to handle the health issue. There are 
people who want to get the message out that being fat is usually not 
unhealthy (i.e. fat is a state of being, behaviors are healthy or 
unhealthy) and that you cant tell a person's health by their weight. 
And there are those people who say that the whole health issue is a way 
for anti-fat people to frame the arguement in terms of a different form 
of discrimination and moral judgement (healthy vs. unhealthy) and this 
is wrong because even if a fat person has bad behaviors and unheathly 
habits, they still deserve the same dignity and treatment as other 
people in our society. 

Anyways, one of my favorite bloggers has a post about just this issue 
which I ran across last night. She says things a lot better than I can

http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/

resp:17

Ok, I will accept that fat people dont heal quite as well as thin 
people. But in the grand scheme of things, that isnt a big risk. I will 
also accept that fat people are more likely to have certain joint 
problems later in life (although less likely to have them than 
athletes). But I imagine that surgical techniques could be developed to 
make healing go better for fat people and I also imagine that medical 
technology can help with a lot of the joint problems people are likely 
to encounter. 

I do, btw, understand the economics of it all. Such a small percentage 
of people are over a 100lbs overweight that it probably wouldnt be in 
the best interests of medicine to focus on fat people. As our 
population gets fatter though, I expect more resources will be devoted 
to such things. 

I know it is good that I bite my tongue when people tell me they are 
going on a diet. For all I know they might be one of the 5% who 
actually lose weight and keep it off. They might even be like Jeanne 
who has lost a LOT of weight and kept it off for years and years. Of 
course it is possible for people to lose weight. I wish that people 
would give me the same courtesy when I talk about my decision NOT to 
try to lose weight. It is a rational decision. I sometimes really start 
to feel some of the fat community cliches in situations like that. Like 
the one about how being fat and happy with one's body is a radical act. 
It drives people NUTS. seriously. If I say: "I like my body. It is 
healthy. I dont think I am ugly" and so on, there are always tons of 
people who go out of their way to tell me I am wrong WRONG wrong. 

Obesity is not a choice though. Obesity is a state of being. Smoking is 
a behavior. They are quite different. I kind of like thinking of 
obesity like gender. A person can change their gender if they wish. But 
there simply isnt the social pressure to do it. Why not? Because we see 
gender as a state of being and not a choice. Technically, though it IS 
a choice. Just like obesity is a choice. Actually, I might even 
theorize that it is easier to change gender than it is to change body 
mass. 

As for my personal health issues. Well, no. I can run up two flights of 
stairs. Mostly that is due to a couple of injuries though. I dont get 
winded when I climb stairs. My knees hurt too but again, that seems 
more related to injury than weight or at least I think so because my 
knees have been getting better. I might have healed more quickly if I 
were thinner I suppose. 

None of that matters. What it would take for *me* to become a thin 
person is not healthy for *me*. What you do to become thinner may or 
may not be healthy for *you* 

response 20 of 41:

Jun 28 18:15 UTC 2007

Just to make sure something gets recognized first off- I really don't
think you're at ALL ugly. Okay? :) I don't think weight makes a person
ugly. I do think being overweight is unhealthy- but it doesn't make a
person ugly.

As for the risks with healing- I must disagree. When you heal more
slowly- and that includes the way your skin heals from cuts/incisions-
you seriously leave the body open to infection. And a lot more visits to
the doctor's office to check on the wound, and lots on bandaging, etc. 

To be honest one of the problems I have with "diets" is their
suggestions to eat 'lite' foods and what not- and quite frankly, I don't
trust all those chemicals. Butter may not have the right level of
calories- but at least I have a much better idea of what's in it. So
yes, hubby and I use butter in our cooking. Plus I just think it tastes
better.

My theory is all about moderation. I would rather eat smaller portions
of good foods rather than perhaps larger portions with chemicals I can't
pronounce. ;) Overeating is a problem for many people- which is why I'm
trying to be more aware of portion size AND get this 'must clean off my
plate' idea out of my head.

As for activities- I do want to be more active, be able to take the dog
for long walks, maybe even run a little. These things should not be
impossible, or terribly difficult.

response 22 of 41:

Jun 29 21:10 UTC 2007

I don't have a whole lot of time to post right now but here are just a 
few random thoughts for right now...

For me, though I've been at a 'normal/recommended' weight in the past, 
its been so many years that I don't exactly remember what its like. 
Over the years--since HS, I've gained weight at various rates, have 
lost some weight multiple times during all these years but have gained 
it all back plus some.  

There's a number of factors that come into play, I'm sure.  Stressors 
for one thing [starting college, getting married, subsequent bad 
marriage and divorce, multiple deaths in the family for various 
reasons, etc etc etc].  Activity level has also fluctuated over the 
years as well.  However, I've gained the most weight [with a little bit 
of ups and downs] since 2000 when I had to go on disability for awhile. 
I was hospitalized a number of times and have been on a variety of 
medications, adding some, deleting some, based on what works, what 
didn't, what had bad side effects, etc.  I do need to be on some 
medication for the long haul [as do a number of people for a variety of 
disorders]. And many of these can lead to weight gain and great 
difficulty in losing it again [but the meds are needed].

And yep, there is a lot of negative connotations from the general 
public for people 'of size' [too 'thin' and too 'fat']...  It's one of 
the visable predjudisms [I know that's not spelled right] still out 
there in a big way [no pun inteaded].  However, that's also true with 
non-visable issues, too.  I have a disability that people can't visably 
see but my disorder has been joked about, commented negatively about, 
lack of knowledge about, stigma, etc etc.  So for both issues, I 
have 'issues' with the general public.  Sometimes I try to educate the 
people/public, other times its not worth the time/hastle at the time 
the juegments are made.  And sometimes I want my privacy protected...

[more soon]

response 24 of 41:

Jun 30 13:16 UTC 2007

I think that it is very common for fat people to internalize messages
that our culture gives about fat people. They learn that fat people dont
look good or that fat people cant possibly be healthy, and so on. Once a
person honestly starts to believe those things, OF COURSE they feel bad
when they are fat and feel good when they are thin. That so few fat
people ever become thin people even with that kind of belief system says
a lot to me. 

response 26 of 41:

Jun 30 16:52 UTC 2007

Nice analysis, Mary.

response 28 of 41:

Jul 2 19:44 UTC 2007

I don't think that its as simple as people tolerating [or accepting] 
whatever size they are in spite of the discomforts, physical, and/or 
emotional limitations of being that size.  Of course, there are many 
things or situations a person may have a range of tolerance for, but to 
NOT wanting to change or tolerate one thing [being overweight] when 
[because?] its 'acceptable' to that person [being overweight] MORE than 
other discomforts or situations [that it may or may not contribute to] 
doesn't make sense to me.  It's not like many people can actually 
CHOOSE to lose and maintain the said weight loss or choosing not to try 
any to lose [or gain in the case of underweight people]the weightloss. 
But they/we have to tolerate the other things in SPITE of the size of 
the person.  In another way, its not that because: 'A' [behavior] is 
one specific thing [a certain size] THEN you are accepting of 'B' 
[other 'negative' outcomes]. In most people's reality, its B in spite 
of A.  Am I making any sense?

response 30 of 41:

Jul 4 03:22 UTC 2007

Gina Kolata, a science writer for the NYT, has recently written a book
that examines some of the science of obesity. Her book is called
_Rethinking Thin_. The link below is to an interview with her on NPR's
Talk of the Nation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11606653

response 32 of 41:

Jul 4 14:02 UTC 2007

Sure. It is a good thing for some people who find some success with
weight control. Anyone who can lose weight and keep it off without
suffering from any symptoms of starvation is certainly doing what works
best for them and that is great. It is great when people win the lotto
too but buying a losing ticket doesnt mean that a person is a failure
either even if the success rate for losing weight is much higher than
the success rate for winning the lotto. 

Seriously, I have no objections to choices people make about their own
bodies. I am very pro-choice in every sense of the word that people get
to make decisions about their own bodies even if I personally think that
they are making unhealthy decisions. Mostly I think that people tend to
know their own bodies. 

But I also think that a lot of the discrimination against fat people is
rooted in a deeply held cultural belief that fat people can easily diet
and lose weight and that the failure to lose weight is due to fat people
having less will power or being more lazy than everyone else. If
something has a 95% failure rate, that says something! 

I suspect too that a lot of people are uncomfortable with their weight,
not because of how it makes their bodies feel but because of the way
that fat people are treated in our culture. Fat people are discriminated
against in many many different ways. Fat people are constantly given
messages, even from medical professionals who should know better, that
they just need to lose some weight and that they could lose weight if
only they werent lazy people with no self discipline. People constantly
get confused and see obesity as a behavior when it is not a behavior and
probably doesnt even reflect different behavior than that of thinner
people. And, of course, I also think that the actual health risks of
obesity are hugely exaggerated. I think that getting rid of our negative
cultural ideas about fat and fat people can help people make better
decisions about if they want to try to lose weight or not. 

response 34 of 41:

Jul 4 15:45 UTC 2007

I've been thinking some of why my anecdotal evidence of friends being 
able to lose weight and maintain their loss is somewhat at odds with 
your statistics.  I mean, I sure have more friends who have effectively 
maintained weight loss than friends who have hit the lottery jackpot.

Some of it may be that they had serial-dieted without success.  But 
along they way they'd learned some of what didn't work.  So they stopped 
dieting and instead shifted to adapting long term weight loss behaviors 
- habits for a lifetime.  If a researcher collected a group of dieters - 
they wouldn't be counted.  They're not attending Weight Watchers or 
counting carbs or stocking their freezer with Jennie Craig. They've 
learned from "diets" and moved on, finding a degree of success.  I'm not 
sure research is capturing their weight loss success.

But I agree with you that obese people face discrimination and that for 
some, many even, significant change is not under their control for lots 
of reasons.    

response 36 of 41:

Jul 4 16:16 UTC 2007

I completely agree with the discrimination, and it's sad.  The think
that irritates me about it is that there are people who make lots of bad
choices in their lives (like drinking, smoking, drugs, etc.) that don't
effect they way they look, yet some day their actions will result in
some sort of consequence most likely.  So they bitch about fat people
when it is only because of the way they look and it is hypocritical.

I worked with this guy and he hated me because I was fat.  I was so
appalled by him, but I was always really nice to him.  I finally asked a
coworker why he was so mean to me, and he told me.  I was just
flabbergasted.

It's very sad.

response 38 of 41:

Jul 5 02:56 UTC 2007

Just in case anyone was in doubt about the nature of fat hatred in our
country, consider the following essay. Apparently fat people are
responsible for pretty much everything that is wrong in our country. Or
rather 

"The fat on our bodies is simply the external manifestation of the fat
that infects the national spirit the corruption of our most sacred
institutions, the incompetence of our public servants, the erosion of
our civil liberties and the apathy that weighs us all down like a double
Whopper with cheese."

http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=344915

response 40 of 41:

Jul 5 20:55 UTC 2007

Yeah, that stress research has been ongoing. It is nice to see that it 
continues. I have heard it as a possible explanation for some of the 
differences in weight among people of different socio-economic classes. 

There is also some research that suggests that belly fat increases 
certain hormones that in turn cause a person's body to become resistant 
to insulin (aka type 2 diabetes). So if a drug could be developed that 
prevented the belly fat, it might also be something useful in treating 
diabetes. 

There really has been a lot of research in this subject because, let's 
face it, there is a huge economic insentive here. Can you imagine how 
rich a drug company would be if they actually could develop a drug that 
caused people to lose weight without the terrible side effects of 
current and past weight loss drugs?