response 17 of 79:

Jan 27 11:04 UTC 1999

Re: #15  How big of project would it be to totally rewrite
newuser and get it into the Grex domain?

response 19 of 79:

Jan 27 18:17 UTC 1999

   The source is available.  Its in AFS space, and with the mit bridge
between afs and the web I think anyone can get it.  The real issue is
what to do with newuser, not access to it.

response 21 of 79:

Jan 28 05:52 UTC 1999

I see your point.  That's why I refuse to sit at the keyboard when I'm
helping new people sign up.  I know it's a blank the first time they log
in without me sitting by them.
  However, the reason I was sitting by them in the first place is that
they were too intimidated by the computer to even attempt it by
themselves.  I'd like to see something that gets them in quickly, so that
they can see a quick benefit, and yet make the help and advanced features
available easily as they find need for them.
  Could newuser change tty modes on the fly?  Would it be possible to
identify the terminal type early, and then switch to a full-screen mode
for the input, and be able to hyperlink to the explanation/help text if
necessary?  Ideally, the newuser program would be bare-bones, and then
once the userid, password, and terminal type are determined, link to the
change program directly, so that the user gets some experience with the
utility they will eventually return to.

response 23 of 79:

Feb 8 14:58 UTC 1999

It's been a while since I've looked at newuser, but if memory serves, 
what's at issue here -- the questions newuser asks -- is controlled 
to a large extent by template files rather than being hard-coded. So I 
doubt that major overhaul of the code would be necessary.

There seems to be concensus that the "technical" questions that newuser 
asks -- setting special keys, terminal type, login shell, etc. -- 
should be simplified, with the user being given the choice of accepting 
standard defaults.

There's mixed opinion on the other stuff that newuser asks -- address, 
phone number, etc. I favor simplifying that significantly too, though 
apparently not everyone agrees.

response 25 of 79:

Feb 8 18:54 UTC 1999

Hmmmmff! (signed: Mac OS user)

response 27 of 79:

Feb 8 20:45 UTC 1999

How about:
        1) Those familiar with DOS
        2) Those familiar with windowed OSs (Windows, MacOS, etc.)
        3) Those familiar with UNIX (Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.)

Does that make you happier, Rane?  For these purposes, there's no 
functional difference between Windows and MacOS. (How's that for an 
inflamitory statement? :)

response 29 of 79:

Feb 8 21:38 UTC 1999

Isn't the fundamental distinction for #27 GUI and CLI? But I'm not sure
what the relevance of this is to Grex as it stands. Grex is essentially
a CLI, with moves away from that with menu and, definitely, with Backtalk.

response 31 of 79:

Feb 9 12:13 UTC 1999

I remember *very* clearly when Dave Parks took out the logic in newuser
that made people type in their interrupt character.  It was not pretty.
It's quite amazing, really, that some of the world's most common
terminal programs do such screwy things with ^C - but they do.  Making
something simplier does not always make it easier to learn.

response 33 of 79:

Feb 9 21:12 UTC 1999

Odd.  Every term program I've ever used on every OS I've ever used has 
used ^C and not done anything strange with it.

response 35 of 79:

Feb 9 23:02 UTC 1999

Windows 3.1 Terminal uses ^C for copy.

response 37 of 79:

Feb 10 05:57 UTC 1999

        I'd rather ask why the basic choices outlined above are
        somehow unacceptable..

        It covers the 4|5 major incoming systems, and it makes their
        solutions simple. That they should read a manpage is never an
        issue.. Any idiot should be aware of man-pages as the *nix
        alternative to "hlp" files.. Unfortunately, most man-pages
        were written by eithe illiterates, or - more politely:
        "programmers too busy to learn to write".

        Offer the choices, 1-5, and list the hilights of what keys it
        means.. If they are lost, the magic name *IS* listed, and if
        they are NOT - then they can resolve it AFTER THE FACT.

        In fact... choice #6 could be:

                "screw up your keys with customization, instead"

response 39 of 79:

Feb 10 17:13 UTC 1999

        Yeah, I see your point.. But it becomes then a question of how in
        the world to acquire the info from folks that are, at best,
        blithely unaware of what the question even is..

        ..Or, MicroSoft is so accepted and prevalant that they are all
        presuming that you KNOW they are using 'Doze.. OTOH, the question
        seemed to ask about their _computer_ - and that, as I think of it
        myself, is the hardware (although I'll certainly admit that the
        software is what makes it all glue together).

        Now, it's been a couple years since I first had interest in it,
        but... I seem to recall that telnet clients & hosts can perform
        bidirectional barter as to operations-parameters.. It's a
        longshot, (and I really cringe at the thought), but.. is it both
        possible and advisable to have the host query the hell outta'
        their client? I'd hate to rely on this, but.. If it occured BEFORE
        the keys-selection point, then the program might be able to make
        better guesses - and offer improved choices - which the operator
        could then select with some confidence.. Or, use the information
        acquired to make better choices/customization..

        I'm not sure this entire topic is worth the effort, but I do know
        that having to diddle-dick with stty and setenv TERM... can be
        harrowing - particularly if either side decides to "take a day
        off", and default to something bizzare (mnet's still-prevalent
        ^J is-a-return, for example...)

response 41 of 79:

Feb 11 14:25 UTC 1999

        hehe - Janc has some code that is the epitomy of "simplified",
        but I won't suggest using his time.. If I might, I'd be
        interesting in kibitzing/contributing - snot like mnut wants
        such a contrib..

        Might still behoove us to ask in agora/motd - or even do a bit
        of a search thru the .login's to see what settings are the
        most popular.. 

        Frankly, never having owned (or wanted) a Mac, and being now
        Doze-free, I'd need some data to work from.. It seems to me that
        - any way you want to slice it - you are still looking at
        "pick doze/mac/*nix/<whatever> & 'be a mensch!'"