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Grex > Coop11 > #173: Motion to make scribble permanently erase response text | |
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| 25 new of 255 responses total. |
jmsaul
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response 157 of 255:
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Jun 14 12:25 UTC 2000 |
Same here.
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remmers
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response 158 of 255:
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Jun 14 17:06 UTC 2000 |
Re #173: Right, a different venue, although I'm not so sure I have
the appetite to debate the general issues at this point in time. So
I'll just say that I think the public interest includes encouraging
low-cost grass-roots public free speech forums like Grex and M-Net
to exist without excessive danger of legal liability on the part of
the management.
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jmsaul
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response 159 of 255:
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Jun 14 17:16 UTC 2000 |
I'd agree. The best way to do that, though, is not to take a hardline point
of view against the user's individual interests like you're doing now.
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orinoco
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response 160 of 255:
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Jun 14 23:48 UTC 2000 |
Mary seems to have taught John her future-item-reading trick. (It's odd,
you'd think she'd be fine with hiding the censored log, since she sees all
the posts ahead of time anyway.....)
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mary
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response 161 of 255:
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Jun 15 00:34 UTC 2000 |
You have to stop thinking about it in terms of having said and
going to say. Conferencing is a little like a Mobius strip.
Or to put it another way, what comes around has gone around,
and if it looks familiar, you've got it now get over it.
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remmers
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response 162 of 255:
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Jun 15 11:27 UTC 2000 |
Re #159: Don't you mean "like *we* are doing now"? :)
Mary's right. Doing conferencing over a period of years is
sort of like watching various productions of "Hamlet". The
costumes and scenery might change, but you can still predict
with uncanny accuracy what each and every character is going
to say and do. I don't *quite* have it to the point where
I can forsee what response number a person's familiar
response will appear in, but I'm working on it.
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jmsaul
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response 163 of 255:
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Jun 15 11:34 UTC 2000 |
Then you already know I'll say this: No, I meant like *you* are doing now.
I don't take any responsibility for, or ownership of, Grex's current policy
on scribbling.
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md
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response 164 of 255:
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Jun 15 15:26 UTC 2000 |
What Joe said.
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remmers
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response 165 of 255:
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Jun 16 13:19 UTC 2000 |
Re #163: I wasn't suggesting that you should take any responsibility
or ownership for the current policy, Mr. Needs To Lighten Up A Bit.
I was alluding to an observation I made earlier that participating
in discussions here makes you in a real sense a member of the
community.
If the policy gets changed, I'd *love* to see you claim that you
had no role in causing that to happen. :)
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jmsaul
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response 166 of 255:
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Jun 16 13:49 UTC 2000 |
No, I wouldn't claim that.
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slynne
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response 167 of 255:
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Jun 18 21:42 UTC 2000 |
Well I would!
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aruba
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response 168 of 255:
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Jun 19 01:46 UTC 2000 |
Standard plug: Anyone who'd like to have a role in determining this or
any other Grex policy should become a member of Grex. Only members' votes
count in determining the outcome of a vote. Type !support or go to
http://www.cyberspace.org/member.html for information on how to become a
member.
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jmsaul
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response 169 of 255:
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Jun 19 02:17 UTC 2000 |
The outcome of this vote may determine whether I bother.
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remmers
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response 170 of 255:
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Jun 20 15:24 UTC 2000 |
REMINDER: The vote ends Thursday, June 22, at midnight (EDT).
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remmers
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response 171 of 255:
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Jun 22 16:32 UTC 2000 |
UPDATE: Since Grex has been inaccessible via the net for a full
day, voting is extended at least through Friday, June 23 (possibly
longer, depending on how long the net connection remains down).
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remmers
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response 172 of 255:
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Jun 24 13:58 UTC 2000 |
ANOTHER UPDATE: Grex was off the net for nearly three days,
so the vote is extended for three days past the original deadline.
Voting will end at midnight on Sunday, June 25 (EDT). I'll
report the results as soon as feasible thereafter.
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remmers
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response 173 of 255:
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Jun 26 05:18 UTC 2000 |
The polls are now closed. I'll report results when I've received
a definitive list of eligible voters from the treasurer.
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remmers
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response 174 of 255:
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Jun 26 05:44 UTC 2000 |
Okay, I've gotten the update I needed from Greg. Here are the
results:
33 members voted. The totals are
yes 14
no 19
The motion failed.
(On a personal note, I'm somewhat surprised by this. I had expected
the motion to pass. So much for my ability to gauge the sentiments
of the body politic.)
The unofficial non-member vote went the other way: 57 yes, 33 no.
This was less of a surprise to me.
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gypsi
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response 175 of 255:
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Jun 26 07:43 UTC 2000 |
Exactly. Most of the people who were in favor of it aren't members.
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jmsaul
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response 176 of 255:
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Jun 26 14:18 UTC 2000 |
Guess I'll never be a member, because I won't support any system that does
this to its members. I'll be out of here permanently as soon as M-Net's back
up.
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remmers
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response 177 of 255:
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Jun 26 14:28 UTC 2000 |
Re #175: Only about a third of the eligible voters bothered
to vote, despite extensive discussion and the fact that the
vote was well-publicized. I don't know how it would have gone
if the turnout had been larger.
Re #176: Sorry you feel that way, Joe. I don't know quite what
to say, except that it was the members themselves who determined
the outcome on this one, not the "system".
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jmsaul
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response 178 of 255:
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Jun 26 14:36 UTC 2000 |
Doesn't matter to me. It's an unethical stance for Grex to take, in my
opinion, and I won't be part of it. I think you're right up there with
Web providers who assert ownership over their users' sites, and you should
be ashamed.
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jep
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response 179 of 255:
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Jun 26 14:53 UTC 2000 |
I'm pretty dismayed by this vote. I agree with what seldon said about
it being unethical for Grex to keep text public when the person who
entered it tried to remove it.
At least the relevant 'help' commands for censor/scribble/expurgate/etc.
now explain that the material is left in a publicly readable place.
That's an improvement.
I'm not going to say I'll never be a Grex member, not over this issue.
Grex is not perfect, but it's worth supporting. Hopefully this issue
will be raised again in the not-distant future, and the system will be
stable enough, and the members interested enough, to get it right the
next time.
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krj
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response 180 of 255:
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Jun 26 14:57 UTC 2000 |
(... as unethical as pre-1991 M-net, a system which I'm sure you never
would have been a part of... :) )
I'm very sorry that you have that reaction, Joe. Civilized politics
requires that one accept losses occasionally; the vote on this
was low enough and close enough that a more useful response
would be to become a voting member, and look to recruit more voting
members who share your view. I don't recall what the Grex rules
are on re-opening an issue, but I doubt the bylaws say that an issue
can never be revisted.)
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jmsaul
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response 181 of 255:
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Jun 26 15:23 UTC 2000 |
Ken, M-Net learns and changes. That log -- and the right of users to withdraw
their own text -- has been protected for almost 10 years now. That's
about as long as Grex has been in existence.
I've had several people say "well, if you care about this, you should
become a member and pay us money so your voice will be heard". I have to
agree that's a very pragmatic thing to say, and I'll admit up front that
M-Net only lets people who have contributed at least $15 (yearly Citizen
rate) vote, but that isn't a very strong ethical position. You've now
escalated that to, in effect, "Don't leave -- just buy the next vote."
Now, I could easily do that, and I could do it even without recruiting
"shills" who would never bother to use Grex again, because there are 66
other non-paying users out there who voted for the proposal. I could do it
out of my own pocket. It's not that expensive. But it wouldn't be ethical.
And it would feel a lot like giving in to blackmail. So I won't.
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