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Author Message
25 new of 316 responses total.
janc
response 150 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:02 UTC 1999

The only link to that page that I installed was from the page you reach
when you hit the "governance" link on our home page.  I'm wondering if
we should have a direct link to it (at least temporarily) from our home
page.
scott
response 151 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:06 UTC 1999

The Ann Arbor News has a story:
http://aa.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/19990624netlawsue.frm
remmers
response 152 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:15 UTC 1999

Re resp:150 - Excellent page. There's currently no link to our declaration,
but I assume you intend to put one in.

I think a direct link from our home page would be appropriate.
aruba
response 153 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:39 UTC 1999

A link to Jan's page from the home page sounds better than one straight to the
press release.  Good idea.

The declaration we submitted is in ~aruba/aclu/dec4.txt.  However I just
got off the phone with Marshall Widick, and they've decided they would
like some changes made.  In particular, they're going to take all the
stuff about how hard it is to ID people out of everyone's declarations,
and wait for the other side to bring that point up.  He's going to call
Jan momentarily and go through the changes with him.
other
response 154 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:42 UTC 1999

surprisingly, the snooze article was written more evenhandedly, while the 
freep article seemed clearly sensational.
other
response 155 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 17:44 UTC 1999

isn't the hardship required to ID users and the resulting loss of small 
services which serve to guarantee freedom of expression somewhat central 
to the case?
albaugh
response 156 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 19:08 UTC 1999

It would seem that the news agencies are identifying the other plaintiffs,
instead of "vanilla bbs" grex, and I can understand why, from the standpoint
of "newworthiness".
janc
response 157 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 20:13 UTC 1999

Since the Declaration hasn't been finalized, I haven't put in a link to
it yet (or even generated an HTML version).  The page has links to the
discussions, including this one, so people can see the draft versions
here.

My understanding is that the outline we were originally working from was
originally developed more for the New York case than for this one.  The
NY law apparantly had more to say about age verification.  The Michigan
law doesn't talk about it at all.  It just doesn't make much sense to be
saying "but age verification won't work" until after someone else has
suggested it as a possible solution.  Cutting out discussion of that
option until it is raised lets us focus more sharply on the other
issues.

I'll be talking to the attorney about specific changes tomorrow AM. 
I'll post the new version here.
aruba
response 158 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 24 21:54 UTC 1999

The Detroit News has an article too; it's on page 2D (sorry I don't know the
URL).  The reporter, Mr. Esparza, is the only one of the three who
interviewed "people on the street" about the law.

Ms. Cobbs at the AA News sepelled Mary's name wrong and called us an ISP, but
otherwise I thought it was a decent article.
scg
response 159 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 25 00:52 UTC 1999

http://www.detnews.com/1999/technology/9906/24/06240113.htm

It doesn't really go into much depth, but it does strike me as the best
balanced of the articles so far.
aruba
response 160 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 25 02:07 UTC 1999

The interesting thing about the Detroit News article is you can find out how
body piercing and tattooing are connected to free speech on the Internet.
dpc
response 161 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 25 14:22 UTC 1999

I'm not surprised that our lawyers want the declaration changed.
I figured that the NY outline wasn't going to apply in detail to
the Michigan law.

Any idea when the hearing on our motion for preliminary injunction
will be?
janc
response 162 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 26 16:55 UTC 1999

After talking to the attorneys I've made some changes to the declaration.
Most of the changes are exactly what they asked for.  I made a few other
grammar and readability fixes.
janc
response 163 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 26 16:56 UTC 1999

  DECLARATION OF JAN WOLTER

  I, Jan Wolter, of Ann Arbor, Michigan, do declare:

  1.  I am secretary of Cyberspace Communications, a Michigan
  non-profit corporation whose primary function is to maintain a
  free, public-access Internet service called "Grex." The name
  "Grex" (which means "group" in Latin) is also registered as a
  d/b/a for Cyberspace Communications, Inc. On behalf of Cyberspace
  Communications and our members and users, I submit this
  declaration in support of plaintiffs' motion for injunctive
  relief against enforcement of Michigan Public Act 33 of 1999
  (hereinafter, the "Act"). 

  2.  I have been using and administering public-access
  computer-conferencing systems since 1983.  I am currently the
  secretary of the board of Cyberspace Communications, and a member
  of its volunteer technical staff.  I served as president of
  Cyberspace Communications in 1998.  Professionally, I am a
  freelance software developer, specializing in building web sites. 
  I received a Ph.D. in Computer Engineering from the University of
  Michigan in 1988 and was a Professor of Computer Science at Texas
  A&M University from 1988 to 1995.

  BACKGROUND

  3.  Cyberspace Communications is a recognized 501(c)(3)
  tax-exempt organization that pursues charitable and educational
  missions on the Internet.  We provide limited access to Internet
  services free of charge, but our primary purpose is to provide a
  wide range of on-line discussion forums allowing free exchange of
  information on any topic. Grex has been in operation since 1991.

  4.  The Grex system is accessible to the public via the Internet
  as "cyberspace.org".  It is also accessible via a bank of dial-in
  modems located in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  To support our charitable
  and educational mission, we have made the process of registering
  to use Grex as barrier-free as possible.  Users are not required
  to pay any fees, nor are they required to give any information
  about themselves.  All accounts are created immediately upon
  request.  This open access policy helps ensure that a wide range
  of people can make use of our services and bring their viewpoints
  to our discussion forums.

  5.  Grex is active, popular, and has a large number of users. 
  An average of about 200 new accounts are created daily; there
  are currently about 29,000 active accounts.  Users come from all
  over the world, but the majority of those most active in our
  public forums are Michigan residents.  Many are minors.  Because
  we do not require our users to supply personal information, we
  do not have complete information about the ages or locations of
  our users.

  6.  Grex is primarily a computer conferencing system, allowing
  users to post messages in any of over 100 public electronic
  forums.  These conferences are at the heart of our educational
  mission.  Among the topics covered by conferences on Grex are
  music, the arts, writing, consumer information, housing,
  finance, small business, philosophy, living with disabilities,
  men's and women's issues, parenting, pets, computer hardware and
  software, nature, and role-playing games.  There are also
  non-topical "creative" conferences and a general discussion
  area.  All Cyberspace Communications policies are discussed and
  developed in a public conference called "coop".  Any posting to
  these conferences typically remains publicly readable for months
  or years.  Postings are censored only in rare cases (for
  example, if someone posts a dozen copies of the same message we
  might hide all but one).  All conferences can be read over the
  web even by people who do not have Grex accounts - they are
  easily readable by anyone in the world who has access to the
  Internet.  The conferences currently contain about 42 million
  words of text, roughly five times as much text as a typical 20
  volume encyclopedia.  Roughly 200 new messages are posted to the
  conferences every day.

  7.  Grex also hosts a live chat area, called "party."  Messages
  posted here are short  generally one line of text  and are
  seen instantly by other participants, permitting real-time
  online conversations. Discussions are typically more spontaneous
  and informal than they are in the conferences.  "Party" is
  especially popular with our younger users.  On average over 5000
  messages a day are posted in the chat area.

   8.  Grex provides many services in addition to conferences and
   live chat. All Grex users can freely send and receive private
   E-mail.  They can also access the world wide web via a
   non-graphical browser, and about 1000 users have used Grex to
   post their own text-only web pages. (Images are not allowed
   because our Internet connection is too slow and overburdened to
   support them.)  Pairs of users can also open private
   conversation channels.  Users can transfer files of any type to
   and from Grex, possibly exchanging files with other users.  We
   allow full access to software development tools on our system
   for those interested in learning programming.

   9.  For an operation of its size and scope, Grex's budget is
   extremely small.  All the work of maintaining and enhancing the
   system is done by unpaid volunteers who contribute services on a
   part-time basis; we have no paid employees.  Cyberspace
   Communications is funded almost entirely by donations from our
   users. Our current assets consist of $4,500 in the bank and
   various old computer equipment.  We have about 100 members who
   donate $60 a year or $6 a month, making them eligible to vote in
   board of directors elections and for which they also receive a
   minor increase in Internet access.  Our total revenue in 1998
   was about $8,200, giving us about 30 cents per user per year to
   spend.  About $7,500 of this was spent simply to keep the system
   running  rent, electricity, phones, Internet connectivity, and
   such  leaving us about $700 to spend on upgrades to our
   service.  Except for an unstaffed machine room, we maintain no
   offices.  Although our funding is extremely limited, we value
   the fact that drawing our income primarily from our users means
   we are primarily responsible to our users.  There are no paid
   advertisements on Grex.

   10.  Grex is an online community.  Although for many of our
   users, Grex is simply a place to get free E-mail or web access,
   for some 500 people of all ages, Grex is much more than that. 
   It is a dynamic community where they meet and make friends,
   exchange ideas, and learn new things.  Essentially all of our
   funding comes from donations from this group.  Grex is only able
   to survive because of the dedication of the users who
   participate in our open forums and believe in the value of our
   mission.

   CYBERSPACE COMMUNICATIONS AND ITS USERS FEAR PROSECUTION UNDER
   THE ACT

   11.  We are concerned that Cyberspace Communications and its
   users may be at risk of prosecution under the Act.

   12.  Our computer is located in Michigan, and many of our users
   are Michigan residents, however many others are not residents.

   13.  We request that our users give information about themselves
   but we do not require any information to be given.  In any
   event, our system does not give any way of knowing if declared
   ages, locations, or any other information are accurate.

   14.  Cyberspace Communications itself authors only a small
   amount of material, consisting primarily of publicity
   information, help pages, and technical documentation for our
   system.  However, there are materials posted on Grex by our
   users which arguably might be construed as being "sexually
   explicit matter" under the terms of the Act.  These materials
   are accessible by all users.  Since our forums are primarily
   text-based, most of this is verbal material rather than images.
   However, users are allowed to import files to their personal
   areas on Grex, and some use this facility to place publicly
   viewable images on the system.

   15.  Two examples of conference items from Grex which might be
   impacted by the Act are attached.  Exhibit A is a discussion of
   pornography from the women's conference on Grex.  Parts of the
   discussion might be considered in violation of the Act.  To
   steer clear of arguable violations of the Act we and our users
   would feel much less free to speak on the subject.  Exhibit B is
   a graphic description of a rape from the poetry conference on
   Grex.  It was evidently posted for artistic and cathartic
   reasons.  The responses show concern, sympathy and support. 
   Many other possible examples could be found.

   16.  Although it is not, in general, clear to us exactly what
   material would or would not be considered sexually explicit, we
   know for a fact that textual material of any conceivable
   description could be posted on Grex at any time, by any person. 
   Even if all questionable material were removed from Grex, any
   person wishing to cause problems for us could post new material
   at any time.  Furthermore, any person wishing to cause problems
   for us could stifle a discussion by claiming to be a minor.

   17.  It is unclear to us to what extent, if any, the Act's
   exemption for computer network service providers would protect
   Cyberspace Communications, or what would constitute a good faith
   effort to inform ourselves of ages of our users or the nature of
   the material being exchanged among them.  Clearly what kinds of
   monitoring would be expected from us must be different for
   different types of communications - for example, the Electronic
   Communications Privacy Act prevents us from monitoring E-mail. 
   What are our different responsibilities with all the different
   media we offer?  Since we allow users to install custom software
   on their accounts on our system, are we responsible for
   monitoring new communications systems created by our users?

   18.  Our uncertainty about our liability under this law is
   aggravated by the fact that, as a matter of policy, we allow
   anonymous users on our system.  This is essential to our mission
   of providing forums for open discussion.

   RESTRICTING CONTENT IS NOT FEASIBLE

   19.  Compliance with the Act would force Cyberspace
   Communications to monitor all forums (because all are accessible
   to minors), identify "sexually explicit" material, and eliminate
   it.

   20.  Doing this would require substantial labor, especially for
   the live chat channels which are continuously active 24 hours a
   day, 365 days a year, and which would therefore require
   continuous monitoring.  It would be practically impossible to
   find volunteers who would be willing to expend that level of
   effort and who would be competent to make the difficult legal
   distinctions between material which is and is not acceptable
   under the Act.  We do not have the resources to pay anyone to do
   such a job including legal services.

   RESTRICTING CONTENT WOULD UNDERMINE OUR MISSION

   21.  Even if a method were found by which forums could be
   monitored within the limits of our resources, doing so would
   substantially undermine our ability to pursue our mission of
   providing forums for open discussion on any topic  free speech.

   22.  First, any censorship of sexually explicit material for the
   sake of minors would have to interfere with the ability of
   adults to discuss such topics on our system, even though such
   speech is not directly prohibited by the Act.

   23.  Second, because of the difficulty of determining exactly
   what content is "sexually explicit" any censorship by Cyberspace
   Communications, or self-censorship by our users, would have to
   be overcautious in order to avoid the threat of criminal
   prosecution or sanctions.

   24.  This chilling effect would impact many useful discussions
   which touch on sexual topics and have significant social value.

   25.  Certainly there has been material posted on Grex which is
   meant only to titillate or shock.  But in our conferences no
   posting stands alone for long.  One user's pornographic posting
   is likely to be followed by another user's objection to its
   portrayal of women.  When such material appears in an open
   public forum, community standards  if we understand the term 
   are readily applied to it, not because the material is
   suppressed, but because upstanding members of the community are
   there to respond. When young people are allowed to participate
   in such forums, it is an excellent opportunity for them to learn
   to understand and respect community standards on sexuality and
   other issues.

   26.  Young people will always seek out and find sexually
   explicit material. Our choice is between allowing it to happen
   in an open forum, where they can hear the perspective of
   responsible adults, or consigning it to clandestine "outlaw"
   forums consisting entirely of people interested only in
   titillation.

   CONCLUSION

   27.  We have no viable plan or ability to cope with this law.

   28.  We have a long history of being good, law-abiding citizens
   of the Internet.  Many of our volunteers would sever their
   relationships with Grex rather than be associated with an
   organization whose operation is legally questionable.  The loss
   of many of our most upstanding people would irretrievably harm
   our community, even if we were never actually prosecuted.

   29.  But at the same time, compliance with the law would appear
   to require that we validate our users and/or censor our
   discussion forums.  For the reasons stated above, we are
   reluctant to do these things because we believe they would limit
   our ability to act as a forum for free speech in ways that go
   far beyond just restricting minors from gaining access to sexual
   materials.  Many of our current volunteers and donors would be
   uninterested in supporting such a restrictive forum.

   30.  But beyond that, doing these things in any meaningful
   manner, if it is possible at all, would require resources
   substantially beyond what we now have.  Over our eight-year
   history we have demonstrated that it is possible to provide an
   excellent service to a very large set of people on a minuscule
   budget.  This Act would make that impossible.  It would raise
   the financial bar so that only organizations large and wealth
   enough to pay full-time staff people would be able to run public
   conferencing systems.  For us to raise that much money we would
   probably need some combination of corporate sponsorship,
   advertising revenue, and user fees.  Any of these options could
   significantly undermine our ability to function as an open forum
   for free speech on the Internet.

   31.  For all of our history, we have been proud to consider
   ourselves to be the freest forum for speech that can be
   sustained under the law.  If this Act is upheld, we believe that
   we would either have to shut down completely, or become
   substantially more restrictive.  We do not believe that the
   benefits of this Act can justify so great an encroachment on the
   constitutional right to free speech for all Americans.

   I declare, under penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is true
   and correct.
                   th
   Executed this 25   day of June, 1999.



                       ________________________________________
                          Jan Wolter
janc
response 164 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 26 17:04 UTC 1999

It sounds like the chances of me being called to testify are pretty
good.  The "age verification" stuff that isn't in the declaration
anymore may be handled in oral testimony instead.
aruba
response 165 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 26 18:19 UTC 1999

Looks good, Jan. Here's some things I noticed:

All your parentheses have been translated into spaces.  Hopefully that
happened when you imported it into the response.

The indention of paragraphs changes, starting with paragraph 8.  (This
paragraph numbering thing is great for proofreading - maybe we should require
all responses to have their paragraphs numbered.  :))

In Paragraph 20:
    We do not have the resources to pay anyone to do
    such a job including legal services.
Not sure what you mean by "legal services", but I don't think that sentence
makes sense.

In Paragraph 21:
    ...providing forums for open discussion on any topic  free speech.
(I suspect "free speech" got left on there by mistake.)

In Paragraph 30:
    ...only organizations large and wealth
    enough...
"wealth" should be "wealthy".

I'll go through and note all the places where parentheses became spaces if
you need me to.
janc
response 166 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 26 23:26 UTC 1999

I turned this into a Word Perfect document, and then generated a text
document from that.  The disappearance of all the em-dashes and the odd
indenting were an artifact of that.  They don't appear in the hard copy,
and I'll fix them in the plain text version.

Paragraph 20 and 21 were the lawyer's wording.  In 21, there should be
a dash before "free speech".  I find both a bit awkward, but OK.

I'll fix wealthy.
janc
response 167 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 27 00:46 UTC 1999

OK, I posted an HTML version of the declaration at
http://www.cyberspace.org/lawsuit/declaration.html
aruba
response 168 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 27 05:28 UTC 1999

Looks good.  You have a -- in paragraph 7 which should be a - to be
consistent, and you still need to fix wealthy in paragraph 30.
kaplan
response 169 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 27 16:33 UTC 1999

We talked a bit about the lawsuit on the walk yesterday.  We decided that
rather than hope to see much of our press release reprinted in the AA News,
we should edit it a bit and submit it for the Other Voices column or someplace
on the opinion page.  What do you think?
aruba
response 170 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 27 22:07 UTC 1999

I think that's a good idea.  Would anyone like to write it?  I'd suggest that
it include a mention of the fact that the legislature's own legislative
analysis said that the law was "almost certainly unconstitutional".  (I wish
I had thought to put that in the press release - it's the kind of thing that
a reporter would want to print, I think.  And it's a civic duty to point out
that our representatives are just wasting everyone's time.

Jan and Valerie and I met with Marshall Widick this afternoon, and Jan gave 
him a signed copy of the declaration.  They don't have a date for the hearing
yet, but they are happy about the judge they drew for the case.

(I'll write the Op-Ed piece if no one else volunteers, but someone else should
have a chance.)
aruba
response 171 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 28 04:31 UTC 1999

BTW, in case anyone's wondering, I looked on the Michigan legislature's web
site for more info about the passage of the bill.  The bill originated in the
Senate, where it passed 34-0.  then it went to the house, where some 
amendments were made.  It passed 77-30.  A number of those voting 'nay' stood
up to say that they were voting against it because it was unconstitutional,
and similar laws had been struck down elsewhere.  One representative pointed
out that the legistature's own non-partisan legistative analysis team had said
that the law was "almost certainly unconstitutional".  So there's absolutely
no excuse for the ones who did vote for it - they knew they were just wasting
everyone's time and money.

The Senate accepted the House's amendments and again passed the bill 34-0.

Here's how our Ann Arbor representatives voted:

In the House:
  John Hansen of the 52nd district voted yea
  Liz Brater of the 53rd district voted nay
In the Senate:
  Alma Wheeler Smith of the 18th district voted yea

I'm thinking about writing to my representatives (Hansen and Smith) and
inviting them to join the discussion of the act in Agora item 42.  Maybe if
enough constituents do that, they might actually do so.

John Hansen is jphansen@house.state.mi.us
Liz Brater is lbrater@house.state.mi.us
Alma Wheeler Smith is SenASmith@senate.state.mi.us

The roll call for the House is at
  http://198.109.122.10/pdf/house.journal/1999-2000/hj041599.031.pdf
on pages 6-9 (roll call 234)

THe roll call for the Senate is at
  http://198.109.122.10/pdf/senate.journal/1999-2000/sj051299.042.pdf
on page 5 (roll call 178).
scg
response 172 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 28 06:32 UTC 1999

I'm more than a little disgusted to find out that my representative and
senator (Hansen and Smith) voted for this.  I hadn't realized that.
keesan
response 173 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 28 13:22 UTC 1999

They cannot possibly be well informed about everything they vote on.  I will
try to contact Jim's niece, who is a rep. for Warren.
dpc
response 174 of 316: Mark Unseen   Jun 28 13:27 UTC 1999

Did anyone else around the state pick up on our news release?
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