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| Author |
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| 25 new of 129 responses total. |
emblem
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response 14 of 129:
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May 19 16:01 UTC 2002 |
or foo (fool)? heh as far as sluts go, a girl can be in a slut phase but
not a slut....i think.....
maybe im just confused in this mixed up fucked up world we all live in....
crazy people... ;p
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jazz
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response 15 of 129:
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May 19 18:07 UTC 2002 |
I've never seen the terms used interchangably - player-haters and
players are on the opposite sides of the fence, 'far as I can tell.
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senna
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response 16 of 129:
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May 19 23:45 UTC 2002 |
Naturally, "playah" and "slut" tends to be a gender-specific term,
free-thinking magazines or otherwise. Thus, the definitions are sexist.
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orinoco
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response 17 of 129:
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May 20 05:42 UTC 2002 |
I'm not sure if I agree with that. If I call a man a player, everyone knows
what I'm saying -- I'm saying he gets around, but I'm also hinting that he's
skillful with a pickup line, good in bed, and in control of whatever situation
he's in. If I call him a slut, again, everyone knows what I'm saying -- and
it's not the same thing. Calling him a slut, I'm hinting that he only gets
play because he has low standards, and that he lets himself be used because
he likes it.
Same thing goes for women. I don't hear many women called players, but I've
heard that usage a few times, and everyone's understood what it meant.
If more men are called sluts, and more women are called players, that's
because our assumptions about sex are sexist, not because there's anything
wrong with the terms.
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senna
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response 18 of 129:
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May 20 13:14 UTC 2002 |
That's the point, it's all determined by our usage and emphasis of the words.
The application is rather uneven, still.
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jazz
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response 19 of 129:
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May 20 17:18 UTC 2002 |
It's not necessarily sexist to say that the same behaviour is okay in
one gender, and not in another, when members of that gender have different
roles to play.
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edina
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response 20 of 129:
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May 20 20:27 UTC 2002 |
Ok - I'm going through a phase where I am involved with several people, not
all sexually. It's not a permanent thing.
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jazz
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response 21 of 129:
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May 20 23:24 UTC 2002 |
Not all ... heh ...
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viper2
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response 22 of 129:
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May 21 14:04 UTC 2002 |
I don't argue that we have different roles to play in society, but I do
think that it is unacceptable (not necessairly sexist) to say it is ok
for men to sleep around and not ok for women.
Firstly, if women don't sleep around then who are all the men sleeping
with?
Secondly, though we do have different roles in society it doesn't mean
we are on different levels in society. Women have been second class
citizens in the past and that is no longer the case.
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jazz
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response 23 of 129:
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May 21 17:03 UTC 2002 |
The argument I'm putting forth - which may or may not be as a devil's
advocate - is that, in a very real sense, there is still a marked gender
difference. Men generally pursue women. Therefore, the implications of a
man not being discriminatory are different than a woman's not being
discriminatory, in the same way that the implications of a man not going out
and pursuing someone are different from the implications of a woman not doing
so.
It's not quite a right versus wrong issue; but it is fair to say that
if the burden of discrimination should be the same, then the burden of pursuit
should too, and that isn't happening.
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phenix
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response 24 of 129:
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May 21 17:22 UTC 2002 |
salon.com has an interesting article on that today
,.
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jaklumen
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response 25 of 129:
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May 21 19:48 UTC 2002 |
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/05/21/boys_and_girls/index.html
Not bad-- it provokes some thought.
I think part of the psychology is that some men want to be sexually
experienced when they reach marriage, to therefore be able to teach
their virgin brides. The ideal, apparently, is to get someone
untouched, unfettered, and inexperienced.
There are exceptions, however. I don't doubt for a moment that my
relationship with my perfectionist mother, and some subsequent bad
dating relationships, provoked some dark fantasies of domination.
To be more general and realistic, I can see that children develop
sexual attitudes based on their parents'-- so if fathers are winking,
nudging, and encouraging their sons to swagger and go with their
hormones, and mothers and passive and silent-- then I can see boys
developing bad attitudes. But conversely, I would expect to see
opposite behavior if mothers humiliate, berate, and abuse their sons.
That's not to say D/s is entirely based on this, and that it's not a
preference, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a possible factor.
Even more so, I think it has mystique based on the notion that the
opposite is the norm.
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jaklumen
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response 26 of 129:
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May 21 19:49 UTC 2002 |
whoops, wasn't clear-- my implication was negative female authority,
especially from moms, might be expressed in submissive sexuality in
sons.
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jazz
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response 27 of 129:
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May 21 20:23 UTC 2002 |
The parental involvement for a woman is much higher than with a man,
though, so there's a strong genetic reason for a man to impregnate as many
women as possible, and a strong genetic reason for a woman to find a partner
who will care for her children and remain monogamous. It's oversimplifying
the case, but there are good reasons why this hasn't changed markedly.
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jaklumen
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response 28 of 129:
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May 22 07:49 UTC 2002 |
I've heard that theory, and I generally agree with it. However, I've
heard comments on the somewhat opposite situation-- that a woman may
find a mate that is not necessarily physically attractive but provides
and nutures for the child, and then she occasionally mates on the
side.. (basically a bio/psychological argument for cheating).
I may be inaccurate in summarizing the argument-- the discussion was
on NPR quite a while back as a comparison of biological advantages of
monogamy and polyamory.
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viper2
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response 29 of 129:
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May 22 15:20 UTC 2002 |
re #23 you think that the burden of pursuit isn't equal? I don't if
it's just me and my friends or just the area in which I live but for
myself and most of my single girl friends the female does most of the
pursuit. The male might make the inital gesture, but it is the female
who pursues.
One example my roomie met a guy who was "very interested" [his words]
in her and asked for her number. He "tried to call" 3 or 4 times but
didn't leave a message, but instead told a mutual friend that he'd
tried to call and to have my roomie call him. So she pursued him for a
week leaving messages etc... That is just one example but I find that
more and more the women are doing the pursuing and the men are enjoying
being pursued.
Of course this isn't always the case. In my current "relationship" we
pretty much take turns for the dates. I suggest doing something, I
pick him up [bring him flowers ocassionaly], pay for dinner, open his
doors, etc... and the next time he does it.
I think maybe in the majority of the general population men still
pursue women, but there are numerous women who pursue as well =)
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jazz
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response 30 of 129:
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May 22 17:22 UTC 2002 |
Re #28:
Different characteristics have different weights in genetic decisions.
Though you're always going to see physical appearance - which translates, in
genetic terms, to health and social status - as being important, both for the
good things that health and social status can directly provide for a child,
and indirectly provide through the passing on of good genes, other factors
may vary by situation and gender. A mate's ability and willingness to support
a child is markedly more important for women; even in today's liberated
society, it's much more common to see single mothers raising their children
than single fathers, partially due to the huge investment that is pregnancy,
and therefore a willing male provider is less of a given.
Re #29:
That doesn't happen around here much, and though it's more common in
some subcultures - the Peace Posse in Ypsilanti seems to be entirely made of
female pursuers and male deciders - and I don't think it's that common
throughout midwestern America. I could be biased by my perceptions, though.
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orinoco
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response 31 of 129:
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May 22 18:10 UTC 2002 |
It seems to me that on most issues, everyone thinks their own side is doing
all the work and the other side is having all the fun. This one's probably
no different.
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jmsaul
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response 32 of 129:
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May 22 21:24 UTC 2002 |
Re #30: Okay, what's the Peace Posse?
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jazz
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response 33 of 129:
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May 22 22:26 UTC 2002 |
I'm not saying that men are doing all the work here; what I am saying
is that men tend to do the lion's share (biology pun intended) of the work
asking people out, and women the lion's share of the work discriminating
between suitors. Still. Despite the advances that our society has made in
equality.
The burden of discrimination lies upon the person who isn't asking,
but is being asked.
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senna
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response 34 of 129:
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May 22 23:22 UTC 2002 |
Wait a second, John, am I hearing you say essentially what I think I'm hearing
you say? What it sounds like is that you're saying that because all a woman
has to do is flex her hip muscles enough to open her legs when a guy comes
along, it's okay to hold her to a higher standard than the guy who does the
seeking and pursuit? It sounds like you're putting a higher level of value
on the work the man does in a sexual encounter, that of choosing who to sleep
with and making it happen, than the woman, and thus defending (devil's
advocating or otherwise) the use of separate, differing terms for promiscuous
members of the two genders.
That's a wild overstatement, obviously, but it still sounds like you're
holding a woman more responsible for who she sleeps with since she basically
just has to give a "yay" or "nay." I'm sure my impression is innacurate, but
still.
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flem
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response 35 of 129:
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May 23 17:04 UTC 2002 |
More responsible? where do you get that?
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jazz
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response 36 of 129:
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May 23 17:09 UTC 2002 |
This response has been erased.
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jazz
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response 37 of 129:
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May 23 17:25 UTC 2002 |
Hrm, that didn't make sense. Let's try that again.
The role of the pursuer and the role of the pursued are different, as
you mentioned. A successful pursuer must be able to make quick decisions as
to who they are interested in, and must have the ability to pursue and create
new relationships, and often must be willing to pursue more than one person
with the understanding that pursuit sometimes does not work out. A successful
pursuee must be able to make effective decisions on much less superficial
qualities, and often must be willing to hold back on getting into a
relationship if they aren't sure about a person.
The role that, in this simplified duality, makes the final decision
is the pursuee. Shouldn't the one who makes the final decision be held to
a different standard than the person who originally proposes the idea?
Shouldn't managers who approve a product to be released be held to a different
sort of standards - not higher or lower, but different - than the engineers
that came up with the product idea?
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pthomas
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response 38 of 129:
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May 24 00:33 UTC 2002 |
It would be logical to hold the manager who approves the release to the
same standard as the manager who approved development of the product in
the first place. The factors involved in the decision are essentially
the same - given the available information, is it reasonable to conclude
that action would have a high probability of success/profit? Is the
product/proposal of high quality? You get the idea.
Tying this analogy into the main topic of the discussion, this means that
the decision to pursue someone should be evaluated by the same standard
as the pursued's decision to accept the pursuer's advances.
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