response 14 of 74:

Feb 9 16:11 UTC 1996

Re #9:  I agree that in many fields the average pay for women is still 
less than it is for men.  What you said in #7, however, was: "THE 
COLLEGE DEGREE I BUSTED MY ASS FOR DOES NOT GIVE ME THE EARNING POWER 
THAT A MAN'S HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA WILL."  (I'm putting it all in caps 
so you'll pay attention.)  I have never heard anyone say that WOMEN 
WITH COLLEGE DEGREES earn less on the average than MEN WITH ONLY HIGH 
SCHOOL DIPLOMAS, so I asked you for some specifics.  (More caps there.  
Same reason.)  Well?  

My point about the roofing contractor vs the social worker is that 
most of the former are men and most of the latter are women.  But if 
you can say that no one is stopping me from being a house-husband, 
then I can say that no one is stopping you from being a roofing 
contractor.  Which brings me once again to to your statement that no 
one is actually taking the nurturer role away from men, "it's just 
been more commonplace."  Lots and lots of bad things have just been 
more commonplace, beeswing, including everything you're opposed to as 
a feminist.  "It's just been more commonplace," is what a dull stupid 
unthinking male chauvinist who just doesn't get it uses to explain why 
women stay home and take care of the kids.  Coming from a self-styled 
feminist, it's *stunningly* ironic.  When I said it had me staring 
into space with a dreamy smile for a good ten minutes, I wasn't 
joking.  

response 16 of 74:

Feb 10 00:53 UTC 1996

Um, I don't buy the high school/college gender thing, either.

response 22 of 74:

Feb 11 23:49 UTC 1996

Actually, if I remember right, Faludi is based in part on Gilligan's work.

response 24 of 74:

Feb 13 20:02 UTC 1996

A couple of comments about both sides of the argument:
(BTW, "pink collar" is a long established term)

First, stop trying to apply generalities or averages to a specific
situation.  It *never* works.  The general truth, that women with
a college degree make less than men with HS degrees is a documented fact
if you are talking about the whole population...not necessarily your or 
my salaries.  Remember, that population includes lots of men who
are at the top of their fields, while women may struggle with a
glass ceiling.  It also includes women who have *chosen* a lower
paid job for more time with family.  It doesn't mean that beeswing,
with a psych degree, will make less than a man with a psych degree.
BTW, a plumber with his HS degree makes more than my husband with his
two law degrees.  And that's two men...

Another fact...the law allows for 12 weeks, not 2 months, of maternity
leave.  Unpaid.  Even for women who caan afford it, the workplace
disparages them for taking it.  (I am in the middle of this now).

Men do have the role of nurterer taken away from them...a man who wants to
use vacation time to care for kids is frowned upon.  He is considered
not serious about his job if he takes off for doctor's appointments, 
etc.  That's mom's role.  My husband was denied leave to stay home
for a month when I returned to work after our 1st was born.  But his
colleague was granted a month's leave to go on an overseas trip.

I think if we want to teach girls not to be victims we each need to
work with the young girls in our lives to help them.  It is important
to give all children support with self esteem so when they pass through
puberty, they can return to liking themselves.

Women do have very different approaches to work, team interaction,
competition, etc. than men.  Women are less comfortable, as a rule
with being singled out for praise as well as punishment.  (There was
a great article in a recent Investors Business Daily on this).  What
adults have to do is accept these diferences, and encourage women and
men to develop themselves in ways they are comfortable.

Simcha steps down off the soapbox.
        :-)

response 26 of 74:

Feb 14 06:25 UTC 1996

Well, I'm not an economist, but it seems to me that some of that salary 
difference can be explained by simple supply and demand.  There are more
secretaries available than there are roofers, relative to the demand.
(Probably has something to do with the unpleasantness of the work, but please
don't flame me on that; I have never been either, so I don't really know.)

response 30 of 74:

Feb 15 12:57 UTC 1996

As usual, well said chelsea.  When we had kids, it was very important to me
that my husband be around for them just as  my dadd was around for me.  He
is a lawyer, and I wasn't interested in having him making big bucks with a
giant firm that required 80+ hour work weeks including weekends.  Life is full
of tradeoffs.  We traded money for parenting.  It also means I have to work,
but my kids get two parents instead of mom plus a shadow.  Everyone is home
every night for dinner.  And he doesn't get emergency calls requiring an
immediate solution ("help, my roof caved in!")

response 32 of 74:

Feb 15 18:30 UTC 1996

Life definitely imposes some limitations ... but it's crucial to know that
there are choices.  A few years ago, I had every reason in the world to throw
my hands up in despair -- but my upbringing taught me that it's always worth
a try, no matter how hopeless a situation looks.

I was a 25 year old single mom on welfare with two pre-school aged tots.  I
had no job skills and uncontrolled epilepsy that limited the sorts of jobs
i could do.  After a foray or two into the minimum wage market, I realized
that there ws no future there for me.  I didn't have the physical stamina or
the temperament for it.  So I went to the local community college to see if
I might be able to get some sort of aid.  

With the help of the financial counselor in the women's center, I cobbled
together enough financial aid to start taking a few classes.  Since my book
and expenses money from my grant was taken dollar for dollar from my food
stamps (already very slim pickings for a family of three) I started walking
to school so I could save the bus fare and I got really chummy with my local
food co-op.  In exchange for several hours of work each week, they gave me
free any vegetables that were too spoiled to sell and a discount on the rest
of my groceries.

I started out studying computer programming, but that didn't go well ... I
didn't have a computer at home, I didn't have access to the funds to get a
computer, and I was already stretched to limit for child care -- so I just
couldn't get in enough hours at the school lab.  So, I changed my goal.  I
turned the training I already had in computer programming into the basis of
an "embroider your own" degree in technical writing.

Then, since the market was horrid where I was, i rlocated to A2, where the
technical jobs are.

I had obstacles, I had choices.  If I hadn't been very lucky, my choices would
not have materialized.  If I hadn't been very determined, the obstacles would
have stopped me.  The key, I think, is a fundamental optimism.  I didn't
believe i could really fail, in the end.  I was willing to keep changing the
goal to make use of past accomplishment and meet curent need.  And I got very
lucky at several turns.


Hmmmm, I'm rambling.  I think the point that I wanted to make is that it's
far more complicated than "having choices" or "having limits and obstacles".

response 36 of 74:

Feb 17 00:37 UTC 1996

In the last paragraph s/could/couldn't.

response 38 of 74:

Feb 17 23:01 UTC 1996

(Whooosh...)