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| Author |
Message |
| 25 new of 186 responses total. |
aruba
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response 137 of 186:
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Dec 4 14:54 UTC 2003 |
An excellent response, Colleen.
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jp2
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response 138 of 186:
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Dec 4 15:02 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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gull
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response 139 of 186:
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Dec 4 15:43 UTC 2003 |
I agree with resp:128, except that I had decided after a few days of
watching his campaign that I wasn't going to vote for jp2. I think he
deserves a fair run at it, though.
Resp:131 suggests that part of our membership problem may be simply not
getting the word out to people who don't regularly read agora. Besides
the "Becoming a member" item in each agora, what can we do to explain
membership to people? I wonder how many of those 19 people would become
members if they knew what it was all about?
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other
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response 140 of 186:
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Dec 4 15:55 UTC 2003 |
I think an even more basic problem is that people simply DON'T READ
the newuser text.
I think it would be appropriate to have newuser offer something like
this:
In order to create a user account on Grex, you'll have to agree
to the following. IF YOU VIOLATE THESE TERMS, YOUR ACCOUNT WILL
BE FROZEN.
Press return to continue:
[present terms]
If you agree to these terms, press return to continue. If not,
you may disconnect now.
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flem
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response 141 of 186:
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Dec 4 16:11 UTC 2003 |
scg mentioned that he wished staff had tried to deal with jp2 by
communicating with him first rather than locking his account and then
communicating with him. I kind of feel the same way, but... I find
myself reasonably satisfied with the outcome. I think that the fact
that Grex's staff is allowed so much leeway to deal with things by using
discretion and common sense is something that makes Grex special. I
think it leads to far more situations dealt with fairly and quickly, and
with far less total effort, than if we tried to make a comprehensive
policy and ask staff to stick with it rigidly. As has been amply
demonstrated recently, Grex has people who will try to hack the policy
system (willcome, jp2 et al.), and a simple, flexibly policy that relies
on discretion and common sense is far more resistant to that kind of
meddling than any more rigid policy structure. So I'm perfectly happy
to accept the fact that staffers may occasionally disagree with me
regarding the perfect response to a problem, and I'm quite content to
stay off their backs about it. Bravo, staff, keep up the great work.
Regarding the people saying that the Grex Old Guard is using personal
dislike for people to justify belittling and ignoring their ideas... I
have no idea whether you include me in that category (I'm just a spring
chicken, only been here since '94. :), but I don't buy it. One of the
things I've always been proud of Grex for is precisely the opposite of
this accusation: I think that the community of Grex has always been
very receptive of good ideas when they come from people who are
generally disliked. The thing is, people disagree about what
constitutes a good idea. You can't blame someone for being unreceptive
to a bad idea, no matter who it comes from. Some examples: jp2
discovered a defect with the bylaws in that it was unclear whether a
quorum was required for member votes -- and now a proposal is underway
to amend the bylaws to fix this, a proposal made by other, who y'all
have directly accused of being unwilling to listen to jp2's ideas
because of personal dislike. On the other hand, jp2 also suggested that
Grex make sweeping changes to the way it keeps its books. A lot of us
thought this is a bad idea, and explained why.
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remmers
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response 142 of 186:
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Dec 4 16:30 UTC 2003 |
Re #139: The only effect of locking jp2's account on his run at
a board position was that his campaign statement wasn't visible
in the vote program for part of a day. I fixed that, before
the account was unlocked, by reconfiguring the vote program to
look for the statement in his jp2test account and letting him
know that the vote program would display it if he put it there
(which he promptly did).
If Jamie's run for the board fails, it won't be for lack
of visibility. His candidacy has already gotten far more
discussion than any board candidate in the history of Grex,
and we're only three days into the election.
I have to agree with cmcgee and others that some folks are
imagining a conspiratorial old-guard mentality on the part of
the staff that (a) doesn't exist, and (b) even if it did exist,
wouldn't have the final determination in how things are run.
I'll point out that since 1992 Grex has had a bylaw provision
that allows policy to be set by member vote. This is far more
empowering to the members than what one finds in most non-profit
corporations. This provision has been exercised a number of
times; various key policies (limits on outgoing internet access,
anonymous conference reading, no quotas in elections, depermission
of the censored file, opening up the board to non-local members
-- to name five) were adopted by member vote, NOT by the staff,
and NOT by the board. I'm sure there were staff members who
disagreed -- I'd guess I voted on the losing side in around half
of the member votes -- but they became policy because it's what
the majority of voting members wanted.
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mynxcat
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response 143 of 186:
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Dec 4 16:46 UTC 2003 |
I did reply to that email, Jamie, but my net connection died on me.
Anyhow, my stand has changed since then, so it doesn't matter.
Eric, I agree partially with what you say. The time I became
interested with policy is when the system was inundated (maybe not the
right word, I can think of only 2 users) with users that could be
vexing and may have resorted to vandalism of some sort. It does grate
when people can't seem to see past that and automatically dismiss all
outsiders. True others have had annoying arguing habits. But who's to
say what's annoying. I find some of the old school grexers argument
habits annoying as hell. Doesn't mean I'd dismiss their ideas without
giving them a chance. And that's what I've seen happen here.
This whole thing about Jamie's little spamming survey. Ok, he spammed,
he broke the system, he got his account locked, he got it back, he
posted results. There have been a couple that have been interested in
the results and that's good. Then there are others that refuse to see
value in what he's done. I agree, sending out 900 emails was stupid,
but what was he trying to do with those 900 emails? Sell Viagra? No,
he was trying to guage users and what they thought of the system and
how we could make it better for them? Isn't that part of grex's
mission. He also unearthed that there are quite a few users out there
that don't know what a member is and how to become one. For a system
that needs new members, this is something that definitely needs
addressed. But no one's looking at that. All most people seem to be
hung up about is that Jamie spammed the system. Jamie is
argumentative. Jamie is a bad person. They all may be true. But he's
also brought up a few good points with his survey.
Colleen, true you were accepted easily. Part of it could be that you
were local, and therefore more visible, so it's easy to get people to
like you and trust you. That, and 1996 still was pretty much old
school. However, a person that comes into the community post 2000, and
is not from AA or the vicinity, the general idea they get is that grex
is for AA and that's it. If that's the way grex wants to be, sure,
there's nothing wrong with that. Tell me if that's the case, and I'll
shut up. You guys are working fine if that's your aim.
Mark, fwiw, you are one of the few people on this system that I find
fair and balanced when it comes to issues such as the ones at hand. I
don't think there's a conspiracy per se. I don't imagine all the old
schoolers huddled at their board meetings whispering, trying to keep
people out :) But it's the attitude of a lot of people. There is a
certain "smugness" that that random user talks about.
True, it seems there are people who want to change the system. I agree
that trying to do so without regard to where the system has been or
caring what the general public feel is not the way to do it.
Unfortunately we've seen a lot of that happen. But change is good. And
the only way grex can survive is with change. I'm not saying we should
become like AOL or MSN, but maybe move a little with the times?
And I don't think there's a conspiracy within the staff either. They
seem to be the most removed from political discussion than most of the
other people, which is a good thing.
(I apologise if my post is disjointed. This is the third time I'm
trying to post and each time I get an error page. The next attempt to
post usually brings up a new response to this item again.
Is there a problem with backtalk? )
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remmers
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response 144 of 186:
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Dec 4 16:57 UTC 2003 |
Resp 143: "However, a person that comes into the community post 2000, and
is not from AA or the vicinity, the general idea they get is that grex
is for AA and that's it."
Can you back that up? I'm honestly mystified where that notion comes from.
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mynxcat
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response 145 of 186:
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Dec 4 17:32 UTC 2003 |
I know a lot of people who use grex and they won't interact with other
people. One friend (who no longer uses grex from what I can tell) told
me he didn't like interacting with other people especially in party
and on bbs because all of them seemed to be talking to each other
about things they knew and people they knew. Agreed, he may be a
little thin-skinned (I personally have never had a problem in party
for the most part, though one user's comments about restricting party
to English speakers because of all the Indians that would get on and
talk in Hindi, pissed me off. However that was one user. Not a big
deal) A lot of the items in Agora are AA based - the spotted item, the
lunch item. Again. I personally think that these items are great. But
another user told me how she hated them because they seemed to be
rubbing it in her face that grex was for AA, and not to forget it.
(This was from a member that was around from at least 1996 if not
earlier)
These are petty things, true. But the idea they are giving non-local
people is that Grex is primarily for AA and the vicinity. Again, I've
had this conversation with someone else, and it was pointed out that
this was a recent development, not present in the old days. I agree
this may be the case. This sentiment wasn't present in the early 90s
when there were a LOT of non-local people in the userbase. But the
general feeling of people logging on now seems to have changed. If it
doesn't seem to bother people around here, and they think they're
doing fine without making people feel welcome, that's all well. But if
you do think you're creating a community that welcomes everyone, no
matter where they're from, then sorry. That's not the case. There are
people that will not participate because they don't think they belong.
(Not me, I'm here posting, so I guess I do have some feeling of
belonging).
The question is
a) Do we really want non-local people (both non-AA-ites and non-
Americans) to feel like they belong.
b) Is it worth it to make the changes (either in attitudes, prices,
general content etc) to make other people feel like they belong?
If the answer to either of these questions is No, then this discussion
need not be pursued further.
(I picked 2000, a little at random, maybe because I was around briefly
in 1997-1998 and returned full-force in 2002. 2000 seemed like a good
enough turning point, though it could have been earlier or later)
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aruba
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response 146 of 186:
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Dec 4 18:47 UTC 2003 |
a) yes.
I'm not sure it's possible to please everyone, but yes, definitely. What
changes do you think would make non-Ann Arborites feel welcome? Are you
proposing not having a walk or a "spotted" item?
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remmers
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response 147 of 186:
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Dec 4 18:55 UTC 2003 |
(It would be impossible to forbid either without compromising Grex's
free speech philosophy.)
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mynxcat
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response 148 of 186:
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Dec 4 19:24 UTC 2003 |
Re 146) I'm not proposing that. I like those items. And even if I
didn't like them, remmers makes a good point. I don't have the answers
right now. Maybe this is something that isn't possible. Or maybe there
are avenues we can discuss to bring these changes about. And I don't
think this is a board/staff issue. Maybe more of a community issue.
And you're right. You can't please everyone. I don't expect every
person that comes to grex to love it for what it is. And I wouldn't
suggest trying to please everyone.
One thing I think I'd like to start seeing is "advertising" bbs and
party a little more to the general user who logs in. Maybe in the
motd? (I believe mnet tried a similar experiment, but I'm not sure of
the details, maybe tod, jp2, jep or other mnetters could elaborate? )
Also, we do get a lot of newusers, but most of them come here for a
free shell account to try Unix skills or for the email. I'd like some
way to make these users aware of the community side of things. True,
the newuser program does say some stuff, but face it, no one really
reads through all that stuff.
Neither of these ideas are aimed at anything specifically non-local,
but they have the potential of getting more new people involved in the
community which could bring in diversity to the interaction we have
here.
(Also, I haven't paid attention to the "Other conferences on grex"
item in agora, but I think we need to mention coop there, to have more
people involved in the actual working of this system, or at least
aware of it's existance)
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jp2
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response 149 of 186:
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Dec 4 19:35 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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cmcgee
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response 150 of 186:
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Dec 4 19:48 UTC 2003 |
Well, let me talk about the "visibility" issue. As far as I remember, I have
been to one event where grexers were gathered. I went on a Grexwalk because
coyote's mother woauld not let h im meet an internect acquaintence
face-to-face unless she were with him. We all three agreed to meet at a
Grexwalk.
That's it. That's my "visibility" on Grex. I think Clees has been more
visible than I have.
But I don't think "visibility" is really the issue. I have never met
anyone who is running for the Board, except for polygon. In most
elections, I've never met any of the candidates. So their being "local"
or "visible" has not been a criterion.
Indeed, most of the people here have never met me, and were I running,
would have to make up their minds about my suitability for the postion
based on how I behave on Grex, not what they see me do IRL. My influence
in the Grex community is based on how I behave here, not on some
geographical context.
So, no, once again, it is not hard to be accepted into this community.
They don't even have to meet you anywhere but on-line. And you don't have
to have been here since the olden days. People are having a hard time
being accepted because they do not subscribe to the same values and
behavior of this _already_established_community_. If you want to be
comfortable in a group, you fit in. If you want the group to be radically
different from what it is, don't expect to feel comfortable, and don't
expect the community to work very hard at making you feel comfortable.
What I do like is the way people's ideas are being evaluated separately
from their behavior. I do not have to vote for someone whose behavior is
disruptive and causes contention. But it's nice to see this community
examining the ideas carefully, and discussing and moving on them in spite
of the source.
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mynxcat
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response 151 of 186:
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Dec 4 20:28 UTC 2003 |
RE 149> I think that was last year wasn't it? But that's not the
incident I mean. I think I saw someone mention in general on mnet that
after putting blurb in the motd about party, mnet had x number of new
people join party. twinkie or trex maybe, or even casper. Something
like a few weeks ago.
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jp2
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response 152 of 186:
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Dec 4 20:37 UTC 2003 |
This response has been erased.
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mynxcat
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response 153 of 186:
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Dec 4 21:11 UTC 2003 |
Thanks for posting that Jamie.
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gull
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response 154 of 186:
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Dec 4 23:31 UTC 2003 |
Re resp:145:
> One friend (who no longer uses grex from what I can tell) told me he
> didn't like interacting with other people especially in party and on
> bbs because all of them seemed to be talking to each other about things
> they knew and people they knew.
I've heard this complaint about every online chat system I've been on. I
think it's natural that people tend to talk to their friends more readily
than they talk to strangers, and I also think it's natural that newcomers
perceive this as cliquishness. I don't think it's unique to Grex, however.
Getting accepted by any new community takes effort and persistance. I've
lived in my apartment building for two years and I don't know any of my
neighbors. Is it because they're unfriendly and hate newcomers? Nah, it's
because I've never made the effort.
When I started using Grex I didn't live in the A^2 area. I can't say I ever
resented the local items, even if I didn't always find them interesting.
(For years I simply forgot the 'grex walk' and 'grexer spottings' items in
every agora, since they were irrelevent to me 600 miles away.) People seemed
to accept me into the culture even though I wasn't local, and even though I
was a much more annoying person in 1994 than I am now. ;>
One of the things I've really missed, since the Internet wiped out most
local dial-in BBS's, is the sense that I was communicating with real people
that I could conceivably meet on the street some day. Grex still has that,
and I'd hate to see the local items go away just because they might make the
occasional newcomer feel a bit left out.
Grex's user base seems, to me, to be at least as diverse as it's ever been.
Not only do we have people who are from other states and even other
countries connecting, some of them are even running for elected office!
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bhoward
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response 155 of 186:
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Dec 5 00:22 UTC 2003 |
My experience with the helper bit is a bit different than braun's.
I field help requests typically two to three times a day...in the last 24
hours, one needed help changing their login shell from the menu to ksh,
one asked me how to become a member and another asked how to install a
"mud".
Time has undoubtedly added a somewhat rosier tint to the past than
an objective history would support, but I recall the 1984-86 era
on m-net as having an unusually lively run of conferences.
A number of variables seemed to drive it. Certainly there were a number
of charismatic (or at least verbose!) fw's driving and drawing folks
into the conferences. Then there were the monthly picofests where at
least locally based folks could meet, eat, drink or whatever together.
Picofests created a certain critical mass and many conversations and
ideas flowed out of those gatherings into the online discussions.
Part of it also was Mike Myers himself. He seemed to have a talent for
recognizing potential fw's, handing them conferences and letting them
see where they could "run" with them.
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naftee
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response 156 of 186:
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Dec 5 04:10 UTC 2003 |
Happy GreX staffers, its funny how you talk about the GreX community changing
in one sentence and in the next one saying how the system rules must never
change.
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cross
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response 157 of 186:
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Dec 5 04:40 UTC 2003 |
Regarding #134; I didn't resign staff because I couldn't seperate what I
was doing from who I was doing it for, but rather because the president
of the board of directors specifically encouraged a vandal I had locked
out of the system. She further ignored me whenever I tried to explain
what I had done and why. If I, as staff, couldn't expect the president
of the board to even hear me out, how could I be expected to do my job?
I didn't leave because my feelings got hurt, I left in protest of the
attitude of the president of the board.
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other
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response 158 of 186:
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Dec 5 04:44 UTC 2003 |
re:
> b) Is it worth it to make the changes (either in attitudes,
> prices, general content etc) to make other people feel like they
> belong?
> If the answer to either of these questions is No, then this
> discussion need not be pursued further.
Whose attitudes? We're all individuals, and Grex cannot change the
attitudes of any individual, much less the whole community of
individuals.
As for the prices, let's see some specific suggestions, along with
the numbers of members at those rates that it would take to pay the
bills to keep Grex running, and I'd be willing to run an experiment
in which memberships are offered at that rate for one month, and if
the membership income for that month exceeds both the average income
for that month and the average and actual expenses for that month,
then let the experiment continue for as long as it continues to
succeed.
Regarding general content: The entire content of Grex is whatever
any user interested enough to post something makes it. If you want
to post an item you think would be more welcoming, do it! But don't
expect someone else to do it for you, and don't expect anyone else
not to post something because it may not be ideally welcoming and
inclusive.
There is something going on in this discussion which really annoys
me, and I'm surprised no one has commented on it. Jamie has made
some very interesting contributions along with all the annoyance he
has generated, and I have yet to see any remotely reasonable idea he
has presented be ignored simply because it came from him, but the
thing that irks me is that he is being held up as an example of
what's wrong here when what he represents is the idea that the ends
justify the means, and that no matter how flagrantly one violates
the basic rules of this community, if one appears to have good
intentions then it's okay. That is just plain wrong, and no matter
how valuable or interesting the results (and frankly I myself would
like to see some changes made on the basis of those apparent
results), it doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.
Is it really that strange that I doubt the goodness of the
intentions when the methods are so blatantly antisocial?
cross slipped in, and to cross I say: remember, the president is
only for one year, staff is for as long as you choose to do it. If
you can't handle a difference of opinion with someone just because
she's president, you're probably better off getting out. That said,
I'd like to see you give it another shot.
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gelinas
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response 159 of 186:
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Dec 5 05:33 UTC 2003 |
And I'm glad to see you speaking up, cross. :)
I've missed you.
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mynxcat
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response 160 of 186:
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Dec 5 11:36 UTC 2003 |
Re 158> I agree that what Jamie did was wrong. What annoys me is that
whenever we try to discuss the points he brought up about the users
feelings, people revert back to the means he got them and try to gloss
over the fact that his data has some potential. Point in note is your
comment. There's a whole item devoted to his account being locked out.
You can go whine about his means there. No one is justifying his means
in this item (at least I'm not). And I wouldn't like to see the ends
forgotten because of the means he chose to take. We can make some good
happen from his results and I don't want to see that lost.
As for what could be changed, I agree that attitudes are individual
characteristics, prices may be rock bottm (I'm not one ot dictate
prices, I don't know all the costs that go into grex so I couldn't
come up with a air price scheme) and general content changes as it's
up to the users. I don't expect you or me or Mark or the board to
change all that. All I'm saying is recognise that there is a problem,
and you do have some sense of responsibility as a collective to help
change it. I don't expect every user/member to fall in with this idea.
However I would like to see discussions brought up on how we can help
change. I'll be frank here Eric. From all the responses in all the
items in this cf, yours seem the most resistant to the idea. All
you've done is whine about how some elements are vandals and you
haven't gone beyond that. As I said somewhere else, get over the chip
on your shoulder.
"Is it really that strange that I doubt the goodness of the
intentions when the methods are so blatantly antisocial?"
I can understand you ignoring Jamie, polytarp and naftee. But what
have I done that constituted anti-social. In your zeal to prove Jamie
a bad person, you're losing sight of what other people are trying to
do here.
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mary
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response 161 of 186:
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Dec 5 12:00 UTC 2003 |
Dan, if you want me to discuss, again, what it was about
your use of staff power that concerned me, I'll do so.
But I'd rather take it to a new item, or the item where
this was discussed, or to mail. The is jp2's campaign item.
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