response 134 of 163:

Mar 9 00:13 UTC 2004

Rer #123: Scott, if you had been following the debate with any careful
consideration, you would have seen that I was making two parallel points. 
My first (and initial) point was that grex had no principled basis to deny
authors, including myself, the right to control our words (other than the
"personal favors for favored persons" prinicple).

What happened next was that the anti-restorationists, unable to deny my
compelling logic, began to seek alternative grounds to justify removing
user control over their words. The main basis was the benefit to jep and
valeried outweighed the harms to the posters. I stated at the time that
while I did not consider that a valid argument to justify censorship and
the removal of user control over their words, even that flimsy argument
was highly suspect. 

My basis for that claim was that jep and valerie made no supportable
claims of harm, prefering instead to "argue" on the basis of innuendo. I
also made very clear the point that the words had value independent of the
author and even beyond the value the author ascribed to said words. One of
the key pieces of evidence in support of my argument was that JEP HIMSELF
said he wished a similar item had existed when he was so unable to cope
with his divorce. 

I'm sorry you can't remember all that. However, I made my points
consistently and repeatedly. I am sure you are quite smart when it comes
to electronics and computing. But when it comes to following the history
and the arguments in this debate you are clueless. Hence my moron comment.

And yeah, if it makes you feel better or believe you've won some sort of
argument, then I admit I probably would have backed up my posts if I had
any idea grex staff and its members would act in such a reprehensible
manner. In terms of the principles at stake, and the unsupportable
anti-restoration arguments, though, whether or not I or anyone else made a
back-up is entirely irrelevant. I'm amazed you can't see that.

response 138 of 163:

Mar 9 02:19 UTC 2004

We should submit a memeberer proposal to remove Grex's underwear.

response 140 of 163:

Mar 9 02:40 UTC 2004

I don't think I believe that words have value in and of themselves. As an
editor, I change people's words all the time. As a writer, editors change my
words all the time. I see words as tools rather than anything set in stone.

response 142 of 163:

Mar 9 13:29 UTC 2004

Re #140: You have unwittingly described your problem in a nutshell. Your
*JOB* is to make value judgments about the words of others! Thus, you are
comfortable supporting censorship on grex.  You can't see the difference
between words subject to editing and free and unedited speech. Maybe you
haven't noticed there are no editors on grex. Each person is responsible
for their own words (or at least was until the Valerie/jep fiasco).

And it is extremely presumptious of you to suggest words have no intinisic
value and imply that editors such as yourself add or create value. Shame
on you!  My words certainly need no input/modification/censorship from the
likes of you. 

response 144 of 163:

Mar 9 15:19 UTC 2004

The next time you read an unedited book and notice the problems, remember what
you've just said. *Everyone's* words can use a lookover for typos, mistaken
grammar, and the like. (Previous response scribbled for typo, in fact.)
Even Homer nods, sometimes, and can use a hand. As I said, words are tools.
They are not sacred. 

response 148 of 163:

Mar 9 22:22 UTC 2004

Yeah, but just because you feel that way does not make your standard
correct.  You admit that speech is involved and then you try to make
distinctions based on what you perceive to be different types of speech. 
If you knew anything about free speech you would know it is exactly that
sort of parsing ("good"  speech v "bad" speech/"effective" speech v
"ineffective" speech) that opens the door to censorship. It is the reason
free speech only works when it is absolute (except for one or two
well-defined exceptions like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater). 

You need to recognize that true free speech cannot flourish when you make
the distinctions you are making. Until you can accept that fact you are
the poster girl for why grex sucks.

response 154 of 163:

Mar 10 02:36 UTC 2004

Typical. Apparently some grexers have no qualms about "editing" the speech
of others because they so often find themselves "editing" their own.

response 156 of 163:

Mar 10 03:35 UTC 2004

re 151 But surely you can see, that's just what happened with 
the valerie and jep items!!