response 13 of 74:

Feb 9 12:48 UTC 1996

I think Michael's point about your "role of nurturer" comment, beeswing, was
that it's not fair to bemoan the roles women are often maneuvered into without
recognizing that the same thing happens to men.  I heard it said once that
even with all the changes that feminism has wrought, a woman is still judged
by her family and a man is still judged by his career.  That's a little out
of date, and of course a generalization, but there's a lot of truth in it.
(At least what it says about men.)  If you recognize that there are
sociological forces that influence women toward thinness and subservience,
you must also see that there are forces which push men toward being
workaholics and dominators.  And as with women, there is shame for those who
don't meet the ideals.  If your argument is that men are basically free
and women are basically enslaved, I'm not buying it.

response 19 of 74:

Feb 11 18:04 UTC 1996

re #15:  As a psych. major, you should know to put Faludi away and base your
         arguments on Gilligan.

There are countless factories in the U.S. where men (and women) toil for
$5 - 6/hour, and try to support familes on that income.

response 21 of 74:

Feb 11 21:51 UTC 1996

RE beeswing's latest, it is "a fact that the role of nurterer HAS gone 
to women," as you say.  "I said it was more commpnplace," you add, "I 
did not say it was right."  

What you said, beeswing, was: "And no one is taking ayway a nurterer 
role... it's just been more commonplace for that to go to women, which 
is unbalanced."  You certainly didn't say it was right, beeswing; but 
"No one's taking it away from you, it's just been more commonplace" 
sounds kind of dodgy to me.  Don't you hear that, too, a little?

I dunno, I'm just playing devil's advocate here anyway, as chelsea 
correctly surmised.  I've been in the workforce longer than you've 
been alive, beeswing, and I have no illusions about the roles men and 
women play, and how those roles came about.

response 23 of 74:

Feb 12 02:41 UTC 1996

Not to say that it doesn't happen, but I have been around for quite a few
years without the benefit of *any* formal education beyond HS and have never
encountered a problem with unequal pay. In fact, I have never known or heard
of anyone who did. Is this more a white-collar situation than blue or pink?

BTW, I manage an automotive repair facility and make exactly the same
wage/commission/bonus as every other manager in our franchise chain.

response 27 of 74:

Feb 14 15:52 UTC 1996

I don't know how you can say that women aren't taking the nurturer 
role away from men, beeswing.  If a woman wants the nurturer role, she 
gets it.  It's as simple as that.  And you're right, men aren't 
brought up to be nurturers.  But who brings them up that way?  WOMEN!  

But let's suppose you're right.  Let's suppose that all those women 
who end up with all those children to nurture are entitled to shrug 
innocently and say, "Hey, that's just the way it is."  Now what?  
Doesn't it work the other way?  Aren't all those men with HS diplomas 
making megabucks up there nailing tiles on roofs entitled to shrug 
innocently and say the same thing?  What's the diff?  

response 29 of 74:

Feb 14 22:42 UTC 1996

All of the situations listed above happened because of choices that were
made.  Hard choices, sometimes, but choices.  If you want a father to be a
co-equal parent then you marry someone who wants to parent.  If you don't
want to be much of a parent then you make very sure you communicate this
to your partner prior to having sex.  If you want to develop a career and
have that career be the center of your life, great.  If you want to stay
home and talk to babies all day, great.  My point is that to a very large
degree you have control over how your life goes and if you choose to not
take that control and direct your life then you are a victim of your own
ignorance. Society bears but a fraction of any blame. 

The most important insight you can give yourself, your child, a woman
feeling victimized, a man feeling at odds with his life-choices is that of
empowerment.  And like with investing for a secure future, the earlier you
learn how to do it the bigger the payoff. 

Be honest with yourself.  Know where you want to be.  If you wanted to
make good money and have a secure job then getting a BA in Psychology was
probably not the best move.  If you're a guy who wants to be able to be a
big part of his kid's lives then you're probably not going to want a
career where you have no control over the amount of effort involved.  If
you want steady work, don't care to invest in an advanced education, like
working with your hands, and having stormy days off, then being a roofer
is a good choice.  The operative word being "choice". 

One last thought: You know you've made it to adulthood when you take
responsibility for your own actions or inactions. 

response 31 of 74:

Feb 15 13:21 UTC 1996

Dammit, Mary, we were having so much fun, and you have to come 
along with your common sense.  (One of the objections you're likely 
to get is that people usually don't have as many choices as you 
think they do.) 

Btw, there's a book published every couple of years by the 
Department of Labor called _Occupational Outlook Handbook_.  It's a 
big compendium of information about different kinds of jobs.  It's 
a fascinating book, whether you're in the job market, counselling 
others, writing a novel about a psychiatric social worker who's 
married to a roofer, or just curious.  If I ruled the world, it 
would be provided free of charge to every high school student.  

response 33 of 74:

Feb 16 13:37 UTC 1996

Good illustration of the point that having choices doesn't translate into
silver platters or an easy life.  And I'm convinced that mta didn't so much
"get" lucky as create her own luck.  But there are many options out there that
some people just don't explore, md.

response 35 of 74:

Feb 17 00:36 UTC 1996

A person who finds herself single, with two small children, no education,
and no money is indeed someone who has limited choices.  But the reason
probably has a whole lot less to do with what anyone did to her than what
she did to herself. 

Women routinely fuck assholes.  They may even willingly get pregnant by
these jerks.  Women have one, two, and even more children by men who say
they'll always be there when these same guys can't even "be" to work in
the morning. And women believe them. Young women especially must be taught
that sperm is not a token of love or respect or a promise of a secure
future together.  If you want good sex and don't want to risk a
handicapped future - masturbate.  Don't have kids until *you* want kids
and are reasonably comfortable with the thought of raising them alone (as
you probably will for some period of time).  But whatever you do accept
you had a choice and take responsibility for your decisions. 

This is not to suggest I don't feel sympathy for folks in tight
situations.  Not true, I do.  But the only way out has to be to first
realize culpability.  I mean, if you sit there pointing the finger of guilt
at your family, men, women, or society, then you are suggesting your
plight will improve only when the guilty party stops doing It to you. 
That will be a very long wait indeed. 

I use single parenthood here as an example to make the point. I couldn't
have used drunk driving, inadequate education, getting married as
a self-improvement scheme, becoming a roofer when you're afraid of heights,
etc.   And most folks who feel out of choices and a victim of bad
luck or society's prejudices are really, more often than not,
the victim of their own bad judgement.