response 125 of 182:

Sep 22 21:40 UTC 2006

   Dan, I remove images from Grex every day, and have at least
a couple of conversations (or attempts if they don't respond)
about Grex not being a file repository.  Please don't say
that, its simply not true.  It might be a little less common
today, maybe.  But we still see people ftping files to Grex
and then ftping them back out again, which surprises me since
we there are so many ftp server packages out there for Windows,
etc.

response 127 of 182:

Sep 22 21:53 UTC 2006

Regarding #125; Steve, what evidence is there that if grex allowed members
to host image files on their personal web pages that hordes of users would
then start trying to move hordes of files here?  Clearly they already put
them here expecting them to work, and are suprised when they don't.

And what, precisely, is wrong with users using grex to move files around? 
That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Regarding #126; Another way of looking at that is that, if we're only using
30%, then we're wasting the other 70%.  I say we have 70% of our bandwidth
to lay around with.

response 129 of 182:

Sep 22 22:03 UTC 2006

   Sigh.  Think about, just a little before squawking, would you?

   Each FTP requires bandwitdh.

   Each FTP uses space.

   Most people after using Grex to move files around leave them
here, not cleaning up after themselves.

   I should note that wget plays a role here too, as does mail.  People
bring stuff to Grex and move it elsewhere.

response 131 of 182:

Sep 22 22:20 UTC 2006

Regarding #129; I have thought about it, and I don't appreciate such quippy
statements.  But enough about that.

Step back for a minute: you're anticipating a huge influx of users putting
huge amounts of image files on grex.  I'm asking what you're basing that on.
I'm saying that, those users who want to try and use grex for images are
already transfering them here.  There aren't likely to be many more if we turn
images on.  Where do the hordes of users who are going to stampede to grex
to display images going to come from?  Why aren't they here already?

And what's the big deal if someone uses grex to move some files around?  Isn't
grex's purpose to serve its users?  So what if they use a little of bandwidth
and space?  We have plenty of both to spare, and they're capped by quotas
anyway.

If we're really worried about the web server using too much bandwidth, then
set up PF to put a limit on it.

response 133 of 182:

Sep 22 22:31 UTC 2006

   This touches on what the people who make up Grex want Grex to be.
Are we some kind if ISP, or conferencing system, both?

   Once Grex ceased being a local BBS with phone lines, it changed.
Most of the users have never been in the conferences, be that good
or bad.  My problem is that there are fewer systems like us around
today, putting pressue on us.  People seeking a place for bot tools
are never ending.  People who don't know how to set up FTP servers
abound, and use us.  These trends are going to continue, or I should
say that I see no reason for them to ramp down.  Given that, I'd
like to keep policies in place that won't encourage more file/net
bandwidth use.


   I'm not sure I'm going to respond to this item any more.  Everything
I say you pounce on Dan, and I'm tired of trying to explain myself.  
Since it appears that most people reading this item aren't jumping
up and down to support this, I don't think I can do any more to
state myself.  You can (and I'm sure will) continue to question
what I'm saying and thats fine.  When this comes to a vote we'll
see what the membership thinks.

   Others are free to speak up on this.

response 135 of 182:

Sep 22 23:03 UTC 2006

#133 is about as close as I've seen you come to admitting your arguments 
are essentially cultural and not technical. Even so, I find your earlier 
statement "Given that, I'd like to keep policies in place that won't 
encourage more file/net bandwidth use." downright bizarre. Exactly what DO 
you suggest be done with that bandwidth you're hording like a pot of gold? 
I mean you can basically recycle that ridiculous statement anytime someone 
proposes ANYTHING that will increase bandwidth use. Are you opposed to new 
users in general? Don't new users mean using up more file/net bandwidth 
regardless of whether or not you allow pictures?

response 137 of 182:

Sep 22 23:07 UTC 2006

  No cyklone, I'm not againsr new users.  But when thousands (and yes, I
mean thousands) of eggdrops, psybnc items, etc are dropped on to Grex,
when people use Grex for various things like file shuffling, and aren't
a part of any of Grex's culture, I have to wonder.  Does that make
sense (not that you may agree with it) what I'm trying to get at?

response 139 of 182:

Sep 22 23:19 UTC 2006

Regarding #136; Steve, with respect, take my continued questioning as a sign
that I am not convinced by your arguments and do not support your position.
And since cyklone just posted, empirically I am not the only one (not to
mention others who have posted in this thread).

Regarding #137; Perhaps it is us who are not really a part of grex's culture
anymore, Steve.

response 141 of 182:

Sep 23 00:10 UTC 2006

I just don't understand all the teeth being pulled about this, Grex
never hosted pictures, other places do (I have mine posted in 3 free
places, no problems). I understand the problems that the staff would
like to avoid and I think it's reasonable.

just my 2 cents worth =^o.-^=

response 143 of 182:

Sep 23 00:23 UTC 2006

re 129 You think about it, you bum.

People are going to FTP stuff to GreX, images or otherwise, regardless of
whether or not you've deleted it from another user's disk space.

If you delete someone's file, chances are they'll upload it again because they
won't know why it was deleted; thereby giving you two uploads for the price
of one.

Quotas are what prevent users from uploading massively huge files and taking
up disk space.  If you're worried about someone who never logs in yet has
filled up their allowable space, just reap their account.

It's not a case of "I'm the only one who really cares about GreX.  Why won't
you listen to me?"  Get over yourself.  

response 145 of 182:

Sep 23 13:04 UTC 2006

STeve and Dan, I'm here, I've been listening.  At this point it looks
as if the opinions have been clearly stated and all that's left is 
the digging in part.  

But know that I've read it all and appreciate the time both of you
have put into the discussion.

response 147 of 182:

Sep 23 15:20 UTC 2006

I'm here too. Reading, cogitating, mulling things over.  Both Dan and STeve
have provided at great deal of information that I find sometimes too
technical, but always informative.  

I don't see consensus on this emerging.  I havent gone back to scan the
entries, but I'm not even sure we have sufficient support to take this to a
vote.  

My current stance is not to support the proposal.  However, limiting the
images to members makes many of the "we're going to be overwhelmed" arguments
moot, if there is a way to stop the uploads (use of bandwidth) before they
get to nonmember storage space.  I understand the maxing out our current level
of paid-for band width, and really, really don't want to up our costs.

It seems to me the question IS a cultural one.  Do we want to use member perks
as a marketing tool to attract new members?  Or do we want a system that tries
to provide an close-to-equal level of services for all users, whether or not
they have paid us money?  

The second question is a resources one.  If we DO want to start adding perks
for members, will it create so much confusion for nonmembers that our limited
staff resourses get diverted to even more garbage-clean-up tasks, picking up
after nonmembers?  And will the bandwidth used increase our monthly costs?

The third question is back to the cultural issue.  If we DO want to start
adding perks for members, will we lose any current members if we try this
experiment?  In other words, assume we try this, attract new members, but then
have to shut off the perk because we are overwhelmed.  Will we be worse off
than we are now because we lose not only the new members but some of our
current ones?  

My two cents.  (where did my cents key go? I lost it in the mid80s I think).

response 149 of 182:

Sep 24 04:49 UTC 2006

re 147 Bandwidth questions aside, why do you not support the proposal ?