response 128 of 271:

Jul 6 01:57 UTC 2002

I very much doubt that attacking those who attempt to explain why they're not
giving Grex money is a good way to convince them that they're objections to
sending money are wrong, to convince them to want to send money, or to
convince anybody else to either send money or jump in with suggestions.  Joe
makes some good points.  YOu may not agree with him, and he may not even be
right, but it's likely both that his input is useful, and that if he's getting
stuff wrong he's not the only one.  What Grex intends to do with the money
it's askin for strikes me as quite a valid quesiton.

I"m not a member at the moment either, not because I object to being a member,
but just because I haven't been all that motivated.  Like Joe, it hasn't
struck me as all that urgent, since if all that's needed is a cash reserve
I'd rather have it in my bank account than Grex's.  I've done enough for Grex
over the years, contributing small amounts of money and large amounts of
volunteer time, that I certainly don't feel like a freeloader.

For me, it isn't a matter of objecting to how the money is spent.  I've sent
money to various other organizations whose activities I participate in without
asking how the money is spent, because paying my share seems the right thing
to do.  It's not a matter of principle, in terms of thining that I've already
given enough and will never give more -- if Grex were in danger of going away
without money from me, I'd certainly give what it needed.  So what is it? 
I don't use Grex nearly as much as I used to, and it's not nearly as important
a part of my life as it once was.  Mostly, it's just that I'm lazy.  Sorry.

response 130 of 271:

Jul 6 09:40 UTC 2002

I'm not quite sure how to sort all this out.  Colocation - that's a
complicated set of issues that deserves its own discussion; besides the
obvious hardware and money issues, there is the phone line issue,
possible weirdness with access issues, and the "what about testing and
upgrades" experimental stuff.

There are also clearly some abrasive elements that have somehow gotten
into play here.  That kind of stuff does not make any of this discussion
easier.  Among other things, this kind of stuff scares anyone who
doesn't know the contributors very well away from saying anything.

I'm not sure what distilling the above leaves.  Clearly we have some
people who are only willing to pay if it's a crisis or if there's
something in it for them; they're quite willing to let a falling bank
account fund what they currently receive.  I suppose that's one thing if
they really can't afford to pay, or if they find themselves drifting
away.  These things happen, and that's why it's important both to
recruit new members, and to work to spread the meme that supporting grex
is a Good Thing.

I suppose something else worth saying is that with anything like grex,
it's not possible for everything to go any one person's way.  There are
bound to be compromises, awkward and even divisive discussion, and all
the rest of it.  At the end of the day, though, the bills still have to
be paid, and if grex is going to continue as an institution, there needs
to be some sort of understanding that people need to come together to
see that those things get done.  No system can survive without this
spirit of compromise and responsibility.

response 132 of 271:

Jul 6 14:57 UTC 2002

I'm curious.  Is Grex a "social club" 501(c)(3), or is providing free access
to the public part of your official purpose?

response 138 of 271:

Jul 6 18:12 UTC 2002

Re #121: True, but switching DSL providers is less disruptive
than switching colos.  Especially since you don't have to deal
with creditors who might look suspiciously at anyone moving equipment out    
of the building owned by the bankrupt company.

Staff members getting in at convenient times to change backup tapes might
be a problem.  I've also heard horror stories about colos who would     
only let you have one Designated Person, and no one else could get in --
obviously that wouldn't work for us.

response 142 of 271:

Jul 6 20:19 UTC 2002

wow. it took me forver to get through this item, but i'm glad 
i did it. i really agree with everyone here to some degree -
even jamie way back in #78 (partially).

i stumbled across grex last fall when i was seraching for free
shell accounts. i never expected to find party and a bbs, which
were all new things to me. ken sort of nudged me into checking
out agora - i imagine ken is one of the biggest reasons you
guys get new people coming in here. he's a nice guy, and makes
people feel welcome.

several times i go reaching for my checkbook, but something
mysteriously keeps me from finishing the process. i think it
just may be what joe is saying. the thing that compels me to
want to donate is not for the membership status or extra  
features that i have already, but because i've grown to really
like grex and feel that the bbs experience has, in fact,
positively affected my life. so i want to give back. but
i think maybe it is that i won't really *feel* like my money's
going to do anything but sit in the fund, and i'll get a
nice thank you from aruba and get a warm fuzzy feeling and
that _should_ be enough of a reason. ok, i'm reaching for my
checkbook again. ..but i can't afford the $60 for a full year,
and i have committment issues... but what if i send maybe
a couple of months worth. so i can be a 'member' for 2 months
(lets make it 3 so i can vote?) and irc my ass off. woohoo!
so then i see my money added into the fundage and ....

i'm not saying i don't want to contribute - in fact you may
just get some dollars out of me right after i post this, but
the only reason is because i just want to give grex a hug.
i do hate feeling pressured into donating and i'm glad grex
doesn't do that, but it would be nice if there was some sort
of goal (even a teeny-tiny one that only a part of my cash
went to) that would make me feel more like i was doing some-
thing to really help grex.

p.s. just how big IS the grex hardware???

response 144 of 271:

Jul 6 22:09 UTC 2002

re #74 (aruba): I am not jealous of Grex's financial stability.  I'm a 
Grexer, too.  I'm a member, and have had my loginid since the first day 
Grex opened it's modems to the public.

I never did figure out why people didn't support M-Net better.  My goal 
here is to help find a solution to declining cash before the same thing 
happens to Grex.  I don't have any answers, I just try to ask the best 
questions I can.

I'm very glad Grex has a cushion in the bank.  I'm not sure if you're 
aware of it, but M-Net once had $12,000 in the bank.  It got wasted 
away by various bad decisions (a few of which I participated in), by 
lack of oversight, and by complacency that there were plenty of paying 
users who would keep the system afloat no matter what.  I'm sensitive 
to the temporary nature of cash cushions.

I'm also sensitive to the temporary nature of income from donations.  
Grex treats it's users rather better than M-Net did when it was busy 
turning people off from sending money.  That's good.  But the number of 
contributors is still declining.  That's bad.  Doesn't it make some 
sense to try to figure out why that is the case?  

response 146 of 271:

Jul 6 23:52 UTC 2002

Re #144: Of course, part of what we're hearing right now is that people
don't want to donate *because* we have a cash cushion.  Sort of catch-22,
no?

response 148 of 271:

Jul 7 00:51 UTC 2002

It seems like we are trying to discuss five separate ideas, and all
the subordinate ideas simultaneously.

The ideas seem to break down into these categories:

People, place, things. (duh!)

People:
We are slowly losing our membership base.  This causes two problems,
a) fewer people to participate in bbs and fewer people to staff the
system.  Two questions that seem to be shaping up:  How can we
attract new users?  and How can we attract new staff?  While they are
related, I don't think answering the "new users" question necessarily
helps us answer "new staff".  

Place:
The Pumpkin is stable, but the question of co-location keeps popping
up.  Colo seems to be the answer to the question "How can we cut
costs?"  So far, no one has demonstrated that we need budget cutting
measures.  From the discussion so far, I don't see any data that this
question needs to be answered.

Things:
There seems to be concensus that Grex needs to move to a new hardware
platform.  I understand that we may need to move to a new operating
software when we do that.  I'm not sure I understand the
interconnection between these two questions.  

I know I'm not dealing with the "we'd attract more users/staff if we
had more modern hardware/software" question.  Nor am I dealing with
any real budget/money question.  But I, for one, think I need to
start thinking about the next-generation Grex, both on the equipment
and user side.  

As I think about this, it seems to me that the software question may
be the one to answer first.  Once that is agreed upon, the hardware
question may already be answered.  It also seems to me that by
answering the software question, we begin to see where to look for
new staff, and that then leads to how to reach out for new user
groups.