response 124 of 191:

Feb 10 18:17 UTC 1999

   Heh.  No, but it seems to me we have two types of contributors.
Those people who participate in the conferences and such, and get
to know the community.  The other type is the kind of person who
sees Grex and really likes it, and wouldn't mind contributing but
(to me anyway) is usually far away, and had there been a convienent
system for them to send a few bucks via credit card, would have 
done so.

response 126 of 191:

Feb 11 23:47 UTC 1999

How about debit cards?  More issues than with credit cards?  Less?  Same?

response 128 of 191:

Feb 12 03:04 UTC 1999

Do you mean "debit" card or "atm" card?  Debit cards look just like
credit cards to the merchant.  There's no pin # involved there.  ATM
cards are quite different, and do require the PIN#.

response 130 of 191:

Feb 12 21:10 UTC 1999

I've presented my debit card, without explanation, and had it
treated just like a credit card, where I'm asked to sign a receipt.
I've used it after declaring it a debit card, and punched in PIN
numbers.  And I use it as my one and only ATM card.  The money
always comes out of my checking account.  Handy little buggers.

response 132 of 191:

Feb 12 22:36 UTC 1999

I have one of those cards too.  I can either use it as a Visa card, in which
case there's no PIN involved, or I can use it as what cashiers refer to as
a debit card, and it gets treated as an ATM card and I need to use my PIN.
Yes, it's technically a debit card even when I'm using it as a visa card, but
it doesn't get talked about that way, because that distinction doesn't matter
to anybody except me and my bank.

response 134 of 191:

Feb 13 11:41 UTC 1999

   visa check cards are treated like credit cards as far as e-commerce
goes.  i've purchased a couple things over the web using my check/atm
as a credit card and had no problems.  i'm not entirely sure what the
merchants had to do on their end, though.

response 136 of 191:

Feb 13 16:32 UTC 1999

Are you a merchant with experience?  It is my understanding that with a credit
card, we pay a percentage of every transaction back to the credit card
company.  Is this also the case with a debit card?

response 138 of 191:

Feb 13 19:51 UTC 1999

No, if I overdraw on my visa debit card, it will show up to the merchant as
if I'm over my credit limit and they won't let me use it.  It looks the same
to the merchant as a visa card, which is its main feature.  There was a big
dispute a year or two ago when some car rental companies started refusing
the visa check cards, since they were using the existence of a credit card
as evidence of adequate credit, and Visa spent a lot of time telling them they
couldn't treat the two differently, before finally giving in and saying that
the Visa Check debit cards could be treated differently only by car rental
companies.

There is also the ATM debit card stuff, that people are getting confused with
the Visa and Mastercard debit cards.  They are two entirely separate things,
and the merchants do need different accounts and different equipment to deal
with the ATM debit cards.  Often both functions are built into the same card,
but that's just two different functions on one card, and does not make them
the same system.

The difference between the Visa debit and Visa credit cards from the consumer
perspective is that the debit cards take the money out of the consumer's bank
account immediately, and that the debit cards don't include all the consumer
protection bells and whistles that the credit cards have.  For example, I
don't think you can have your bank do a chargeback to the merchant for you
because you were unhappy with the product if you're using a Visa debit card,
but you can with a Visa credit card.

response 140 of 191:

Feb 13 20:39 UTC 1999

From Grex's perspective, Visa Credit and Visa Debit would be exactly the same.

response 142 of 191:

Feb 14 01:49 UTC 1999

The bank is probably getting several times the $.$$% that they offer you
back to encourage debit-as-credit card use.  Debit cards are a much better
deal for the bank than for either the customer or merchant.

For a merchant, credit & debit-as-credit cards are the same.  Debit-as-ATM
card usage is different - the merchant is acting as a 3rd-party ATM company
instead of a credit card merchant.

response 144 of 191:

Feb 14 23:51 UTC 1999

Re #143: Unless you keep good track, it is always possible to overdraw
a bank account.  There can be outstanding checks; some of us tend to have
various automated deductions, etc.

As far as I can tell, it's basically impossible to accidentally overdraw
a credit card and have that actually cause you any hassle beyond having to
talk with the merchant to resolve the issue that the mechant isn't getting
its money.

response 146 of 191:

Feb 15 05:19 UTC 1999

I think I've only overdrawn my checking account without realizing it once,
and at that point I tried to buy something on my visa debit card, and it
denied it.  I'm not sure if it always does that or not.

Anyhow, that's not very relevant for Grex, except to the extent that from
Grex's perspective it wouldn't matter whether somebody was using a visa credit
card or a visa debit card, but an ATM debit card is probably something Grex
can't accept easily.

response 148 of 191:

Feb 15 15:51 UTC 1999

It occurs to me that a large part of the argument for accepting credit cards
is that we will get some "lazy money"; i.e., people for whom checks are too big
a hassle will send us credit card numbers instead.  Keep in mind, though, that
to become a member you need to provide ID as well as payment.  So people who
are lazy and want to pay by credit card will *still* have to send in ID,
either by U.S. Mail or by scanning something and mailing it to the treasurer.

The more I think about it, the more skeptical I am that we'll get any new
members at all by accepting credit cards.  Maybe a few in Europe, but that's
about it.