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| Author |
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| 25 new of 316 responses total. |
mary
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response 116 of 316:
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Jun 23 12:27 UTC 1999 |
I like it. To be real picky, the paragraph which starts "It would be bad
enough..." is not mine. But let it stand as-is if changing the
attribution makes it clumsy.
I think we're getting close enough that the ACLU office should get a
chance to see this. We may be getting calls today. Have many Board
members had the chance to check-in on the content of the previous
versions?
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mary
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response 117 of 316:
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Jun 23 14:13 UTC 1999 |
Looking at this information from a slightly different point of
view I've tried to anticipate some of the questions a reporter
might ask, thinking through the responses. I'm entering them
here to make sure I'm not way out in left field, missing balls.
Feedback is encouraged.
*******************************
What makes CCI a valuable community service?
The people who participate, all 29,000 of them. It is not unusual to find
homemakers, professors, taxi drivers, engineers, computer programmers,
actors, the unemployed, doctors and politicians all involved in the same
discussion, sharing their expertise and opinions. Our participants log in
from all over the globe and almost all age groups are represented.
Everyone is encouraged to participate and no one is turned away. CCI
fosters the philosophy that it is not necessary for a discussion to end in
agreement for the effort to be worthwhile. If you simple learn something
of why people feel the way they do then the interaction has been valuable.
CCI provides the forum for this interaction.
Why would this law be a problem for organizations such as CCI?
This law will make it very difficult, if not impossible, for service
organizations such as CCI to facilitate open and uncensored discussion.
Our conferences include conversations on a wide variety of topics such as
parenting, sports, music, film, politics and poetry. Occasionally talk
will center on topics where "sexually explicit" comments are appropriate
and unavoidable, such as when discussing AIDS, pornography, or safe sex.
This law will make it illegal to hold such discussions on the Internet in
an open forum.
Couldn't you just keep minors away from such topics?
Only if we were able to know the true identity of everyone reading the
discussion. And how could that be accomplished, really? Anyone who was
truly motivated to get in would find a way - supplying fake ID is one
technique. Too, many users simply don't feel comfortable participating
without anonymity, for whatever reason. Authenticating all users would
make it more difficult for everyone to be part of the conversation and it
would silence many.
Is there material in your public conferences which would be inappropriate
for minors?
Our forums host conversation on a wide variety of topics, most are best
described as suitable for a general audience. But what is comfortable for
one parent may not be for another. I'm sure there are parents out there
who wouldn't want their young children reading a few of our discussions.
But for the most part the content is appropriate for minors. Remember
too, that in all of these discussions you have a nice sampling of rational
adults present who have been or who are parents of young children. To a
great degree there is a built-in sensitivity to this issue.
What would happen to Cyberspace Communications should this law were
allowed to stand?
That's not know with certainty but I suspect CCI would be forced to
abandon its mission of supplying an open forum for free public discussion.
Once all participants were forced to authenticate, all conferences were
moderated, and every word checked by a censor, I don't think there would
be much enthusiasm left for a robust and spontaneous exchange of ideas.
Cyberspace Communications is a valuable community resource which thrives
on Free Speech. It would be a tremendous shame to see our community grow
silent.
********************************************
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keesan
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response 118 of 316:
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Jun 23 14:32 UTC 1999 |
The list of occupations seems heavily slanted towards the professions and the
arts. How about including pizza delivery people, college students, clerks,
retirees?
No wonder Grex is the primary plaintiff, with all the work everyone is putting
into this press release alone.
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aruba
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response 119 of 316:
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Jun 23 14:40 UTC 1999 |
Looks great, Mary. There are a few typos ("simple" should be "simply", and
"should this law" should be "if this law", but they don't matter if you'll be
answering questions over the phone. I suggest adding a line about people with
disabilities to the first answer. You might also squeeze in a line somewhere
saying that by allowing children and adults to interact in public you increase
the chances for children to discover that not all adults are jerks.
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aruba
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response 120 of 316:
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Jun 23 14:42 UTC 1999 |
(Mary pointed out that I misspelled "cyberspace" in the URL at the bottom of
the press release. Oops. That would have been embarrassing.)
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dpc
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response 121 of 316:
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Jun 23 15:34 UTC 1999 |
A much improved press release! With regard to Schram and Steinberg
wanting to read the press release first, *the train is leaving the
station.* If Mary and I get calls it will be *this afternoon.*
The AA Snooze will need to see the news release *this afternoon*
or tomorrow morning at the very latest. I suggest you fax the latest
draft to them now.
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remmers
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response 122 of 316:
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Jun 23 17:14 UTC 1999 |
I'm comfortable with the press release as given in resp:115 .
Thanks for all the work you put into it, Mark.
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remmers
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response 123 of 316:
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Jun 23 17:44 UTC 1999 |
With regard to releasing the press release: I don't think we should
do so before we've gotten feedback from the ACLU. They are functioning
as our attorneys, we are their clients, we're new to this kind of
thing, and I don't think we should make public statements without
their advice. We don't want to do anything that could jeopardize
the case, and while I personally don't see anything in the release
that would, I'm not a lawyer and the ACLU has had a lot of
experience.
The draft of the press release has been emailed to Steinberg and
Schram. No response as of yet.
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aruba
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response 124 of 316:
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Jun 23 19:55 UTC 1999 |
I got a call from Mike Steinberg a little bit ago. He had one suggested
change - "laws against pornogrpahy" to "laws against child pornography", which
is I believe what Mary had originally written. (I messed it up.) Otherwise,
he said it looked fine. Steve Gibbard told me to put the quotes in the past
tense, which I did. (Shows you how long it's been since I read the newspaper
- I though quotes should be in the present tense.) Misti fixed one run-on
sentence. So I think it's ready to go.
We didn't explicitly decide who to send the release to, but I think the Ann
Arbor News is the place to start. Maybe the Detroit papers too? What do
people think?
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remmers
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response 125 of 316:
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Jun 23 20:00 UTC 1999 |
The suit has been filed. The complaint and the ACLU's press release are
both online at the Michigan ACLU's website:
http://www.aclumich.org/briefs/cyberbrief.htm
and http://www.aclumich.org/press%20releases/internet623.htm
respectfully.
For those without web access, I've put text versions of these documents
in my home directory. You can see them via the commands
!more ~remmers/cyberbrief.txt
and !more ~remmers/aclu_press.txt
respectively.
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remmers
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response 126 of 316:
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Jun 23 20:03 UTC 1999 |
Re #124: Thanks Mark. In addition to the papers you mentioned, how about
the Ann Arbor Observer.
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scg
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response 127 of 316:
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Jun 23 20:25 UTC 1999 |
This is really a Michigan issue, and not an Ann Arbor issue. The two biggest
papers in Michigan are the Detroit Free Press and the Detroit News. It might
also be worth sending copies the the Detroit TV stations. From there, I'd
assume the news organizations in the rest of the state can pick it up on their
own.
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scott
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response 128 of 316:
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Jun 23 20:53 UTC 1999 |
Sorry I haven't been very involved in this [what with me being a Board
member]. I would like to say that I'm happy with the way things are going,
and the press release is great.
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aruba
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response 129 of 316:
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Jun 23 21:30 UTC 1999 |
I faxed the release to the Ann Arbor News, the Detroit Free Press, and the
Detroit News. The Observer's fax number has been busy - I'll try again later.
Are there any Lansing papers it should go to, does anyone think?
I wonder about the TV stations. I suppose it's better if we give them our
angle before they go rampaging off against the Internet, the way they usually
do. OK, you've convinced me, Steve. Anyone object to sending the release
to the TV stations?
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aruba
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response 130 of 316:
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Jun 23 21:37 UTC 1999 |
Here's the wording I sent out, for completeness's sake. I put it in Word and
made the titles a bigger font, but otherwise it was just like this.
------------------
PRESS RELEASE
Cyberspace Communications, Inc.
P.O. Box 4432, Ann Arbor, MI 48103
Contact: Mary Remmers (734) 665-5388
mary@cyberspace.org
June 23rd, 1999, FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Cyberspace Communications Joins ACLU to Block Censorship Law
ANN ARBOR, MICHIGAN -- Cyberspace Communications, Inc., an Ann Arbor-based
non-profit corporation that operates the online community "Grex"
(www.cyberspace.org), has joined a suit to block the implementation of
Michigan Public Act 33 of 1999 (The Child Online Protection Act), which makes
it illegal to transmit "sexually explicit" material to minors. The Act is
scheduled to go into effect on August 1st, 1999. Other plaintiffs in the suit
include the American Civil Liberties Association, Art on the Net, Web Del Sol,
and the AIDS Partnership of Michigan.
Grex is an open-access online community, with a charitable mission and an all-
volunteer staff, which hosts electronic discussions. It opposes the new law
because the law is too broad (it would criminalize transmission over the
Internet of many scenes which are shown on broadcast television), and it
erodes the First Amendment right to free speech. It would also require that
all discussion sites on the Internet validate the identities of all
participants and censor any material which is visible to minors and of a
"sexually explicit" nature. Validation and censorship would stifle a lot of
healthy discussion, beyond what the law is meant to cover. And small "grass
roots" organizations such as Grex, which cannot afford to pay validators or
censors, would be forced to shut down.
THE LAW IS TOO BROAD
"It is an understandable desire to want to protect children from what some
people see as unhealthy influences," said Mary Remmers, spokesperson for
Cyberspace Communications. "We have existing laws about child pornography and
obscenity to do that. This law, however, is broad enough that 'sexually
explicit' material may include discussions of rape, AIDS, safe sex,
pornography laws, prostitution, and other topics which people are entitled to
discuss openly and frankly. The law encompasses even clinical discussions of
sexual issues, not just material designed to shock and titillate."
"It would be bad enough if this were the only material affected, but a law to
outlaw one kind of speech inevitably affects other kinds. People afraid of
saying the wrong thing will avoid getting close to a topic that might get them
in trouble. The result is a widespread 'chilling effect' on free speech."
ENFORCING THE LAW WOULD REQUIRE VALIDATION AND CENSORSHIP
"In order to avoid prosecution under this act, Grex would have to authenticate
all users and censor sexually explicit material," said John Remmers, president
of Cyberspace Communications. In cyberspace, unlike in person, it is
impossible to tell who is a minor and who is not. To comply with the law,
open-access discussion systems would be required to collect ID from every
participant, and then to censor areas which are accessible to minors.
"One of the ways Grex fosters lively debate is by encouraging any and all to
participate and share their point-of-view," said Mary Remmers. "Insisting
participants first register, then wait for an ID check, then submit their
comments to moderators who would filter for content, would clearly limit
participation and stifle discussion."
"It's well-established legally that free speech isn't really free unless it
can be made anonymously," said Mark Conger, a Cyberspace Communications board
member. It is against Grex policy to censor content or to insist that people
identify themselves. "We have found time and again that the best answer to
speech you don't agree with is to rebut it, not to censor it."
VALIDATION AND CENSORSHIP ARE NOT FEASIBLE
Even if censorship were an acceptable solution, it would not be feasible for
an organization the size of Grex. Grex is a "grass roots" institution run
entirely by volunteers. Its 1998 income was approximately $8200, which came
almost entirely from donations. (The IRS has designated Cyberspace
Communications a 501(c)3 charitable institution, so donations are tax-
deductible.) Almost all of that money goes to pay utility bills to keep the
system running. Grex has no money to pay censors or validators, and yet it
has 29,000 users who post about 200 long messages and 5000 short ones every
day. It would be logistically impossible to get volunteers to do the work of
censoring that material and validating the 200 people who create accounts
daily.
Putting organizations like Grex out of business has long-range implications
for free speech. "One of the great advantages of the Internet is that an
organization like Grex with a shoestring budget can be home to a community of
thousands of people," said Mary Remmers. "If only large organizations with
lots of resources could afford to host discussion forums, then all discussion
would be limited by the biases and agendas of those organizations. Pressure
from advertisers and shareholders might influence their censorship decisions.
Under those conditions, speech is no longer free."
---------------------------------------
Cyberspace Communications is a 501(c)3 charitable institution founded in Ann
Arbor, Michigan in 1991. Its mission is to run the online system Grex (which
means "group" in Latin) in order to foster free speech and community, and give
Internet access to people who cannot afford to pay for it. Grex hosts forums
on such topics as music, the arts, cooking, writing, consumer information,
finance, small businesses, philosophy, living with disabilities, men's and
women's issues, and games. Anyone with a computer and modem or access to the
Internet can use Grex for free, anonymously if they wish. Funding comes
almost entirely from donations, which are tax-deductible. Grex gets no money
from advertising. Because Internet bandwidth is limited, users are not
allowed to store pictures on Grex.
For more information on Grex, visit http://www.cyberspace.org.
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remmers
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response 131 of 316:
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Jun 23 21:55 UTC 1999 |
TV stations is a good idea. Also Lansing papers, although I have no
idea what they are. Another thought: The Michigan Daily.
Thanks for getting this out, Mark.
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albaugh
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response 132 of 316:
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Jun 23 21:59 UTC 1999 |
Sorry if this is too late - it may in fact be moot:
Other plaintiffs in the suit include the American Civil Liberties Association
Is this in error, saying "association" instead of "union" (ACLU), or is there
in fact a difference between the two?
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remmers
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response 133 of 316:
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Jun 23 22:30 UTC 1999 |
I'm sure it should have been "Union".
The Supreme Court ruled 5-4 today that state governments cannot be sued
against their will in state courts by people seeking to enforce some
federal right.
The particular case at hand was a state court lawsuit by some state
probation officers in Maine seeking to enforce a federal labor law to
collect overtime pay from Maine.
Not being a lawyer, I don't know if this impacts the ACLU's suit or not.
But it is the case that the we, the ACLU, and others have filed suit in
a Michigan state court to overturn a Michigan statute on the grounds
that it violates our rights under the federal constitution.
What is the legal types' take on this?
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mary
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response 134 of 316:
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Jun 23 23:37 UTC 1999 |
I received calls today from Liz Cobb, at the Ann Arbor News, and
Santiago Espanzo, at The Detroit News. Both wanted more information
on our organization, and how Grex fit it with Cyberspace Communications.
The phone calls went well and Mr. Espanzo, especially, seemed familiar
with Internet conferencing systems.
I've incorporated the suggestions folks offered regarding the
question and answer document. Thanks for the feedback. I sent this
document off to Mr. Steinberg for his okay, and he answered "Looks great",
and offered no changes.
Thanks, Mark, for all your work on the press release and to seeing
that it got checked and "posted". Did you ever get to sleep last
night? ;-)
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i
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response 135 of 316:
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Jun 24 00:00 UTC 1999 |
How about radio stations? Michigan Radio (WUOM, etc.) mentioned the
ACLU's suit on this evening's news show. Public radio seems like a
natural media for something like this.
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aruba
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response 136 of 316:
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Jun 24 00:00 UTC 1999 |
Yes, I got to sleep. :) Oops about the ACLU. That's what I get for changing
things at the last moment. Hopefully the reporters will figure it out.
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aruba
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response 137 of 316:
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Jun 24 00:01 UTC 1999 |
Walter slipped in. WUOM sounds like a great idea. I'll get on it.
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hhsrat
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response 138 of 316:
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Jun 24 00:18 UTC 1999 |
You might want to send a copy to Ann Arbor's Cable Access TV Station,
they do a bi-weekly "newsmagazine" show, and are always looking for
"news"
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aruba
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response 139 of 316:
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Jun 24 00:51 UTC 1999 |
I sent it to Michigan Public Radio (WUOM), channel 2, channel 4, channel 7,
and channel 50. I'll try CATV.
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aruba
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response 140 of 316:
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Jun 24 01:22 UTC 1999 |
OK, I sent it to CTN (with attention to their FYI program), and to the
Associated Press's office in Detroit.
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